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You've built the life you were supposed to build. The career, the house, the family. Everything looks right from the outside. So why does something feel quietly wrong?
750 years ago, Rumi had everything. Respect. Wealth. Disciples. Then a wandering teacher named Shams threw his books into a fountain and set his world on fire. What emerged wasn't a broken man. It was one of history's greatest poets of the human heart.
Gary Fabbri works with leaders who look like Rumi before the fountain. People who've achieved everything and are quietly wondering: is this really it? His new book argues that the ultimate habit isn't productivity or mindfulness. It's the capacity to hear what you actually want underneath all the noise you've learned to ignore.
🎙️ Guest
Gary Fabbri is an author, breathwork teacher, and creative director who speaks fluent "both worlds." He's not the guru asking you to leave your life behind. He's someone who's lived the good-but-not-great existence and found his way through.
What makes him interesting isn't just his framework. It's his willingness to admit he's spent years in what Stephen Pressfield calls a "shadow career," serving other people's creativity instead of creating his own work. This book is him finally letting himself be seen.
🔥 Key Insights
✅ Good is the enemy of great (and harder to escape than failure)
Rumi's cage was gilded. The problem wasn't that something was wrong. The problem was that everything was fine. Gary sees this constantly: successful people who've optimized for security and accidentally locked themselves under a ceiling they can't name.
✅ The Shadow Career trap
You build something adjacent to what you actually want. For Gary, it was decades as a creative director instead of creating his own art. The shadow career feels safe because it's close enough to your calling that you can tell yourself you're on the path. But proximity isn't arrival.
✅ Potty training your awareness
Awareness develops in stages. First you notice after the fact. Oh, I just reacted badly. Then you catch yourself mid-reaction. Eventually, maybe, you notice before it happens. Beating yourself up for being at stage one just keeps you stuck there.
✅ Numbing is not the same as stillness
When life gets loud, we reach for things that quiet the noise. Scrolling. Drinking. Bingeing. And it works. For a moment, the chatter stops. But there's a difference between flooding your system until you can't hear yourself and actually letting it empty. One is escape. The other is arrival. They feel similar in the short term. They do opposite things to you over time.
✅ The rooms you've closed might hold your greatest gifts
Picture yourself born into a castle with every room lit up. Then slowly, through small comments and social cues, you start locking doors. Don't show off. Don't take up space. Don't be that guy. By adulthood, you've forgotten half the castle exists. We explore the idea we often hide our most beautiful gifts and capabilities because somewhere along the way, we’ve learned that they are somehow wrong.
✅ If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him
The guru is supposed to light the path, not be the path. When you find yourself following someone because they have all the answers, you've probably stopped doing your own work.
▶️ Listen now
Gary's book is called Atomic Awareness. Worth picking up if you're questioning the life you might be quietly settling for.
Read the full transcript
you're now a, a author of not just children's books, but actually grownup books, uh, releasing atomic awareness, uh, here recently. What is the idea of atomic awareness?
We all have, um, and believe in the idea of habits. Habits are super important, whether they're big habits, like, you know, being a healthy person or being proactive in terms of like, let's say the seven habits, or whether they're micro habits, like in atomic habits where we're dealing with like small steps.
And what I did was reflect a lot on, uh, the idea of mindfulness and the so yogic and breathwork world that, you know, that I'm, I'm interested in and the idea of habits and making a better life. And I thought the ultimate habit is awareness. That is the ultimate atomic habit. 'cause when you're aware, you're most fully aligned with who you are.
And if you're fully aligned with who you are, then the decisions that you make, the things that you do will all be towards that one vision that you have for yourself.
Yeah, a hundred percent. I align so much with what you're saying right now, and it's so difficult, especially from a place of, of un alignment to have clarity on, on the important decisions in life.
Yeah, yeah. And we're all reflecting on that, especially like, you know, with the changes in the world, the political situation, all the craziness. So it's really important that we like. Think about who we are and who we wanna be, and then yeah. You know, work at that point.
A question I aim to ask all authors books seems to me to be a very, like, personal pursuit.
Like yes, you write it because the, the, uh, you hope that people find value in, in, uh, the teachings that you give in the book. Yes. But it's also something deeply personal. Why does it matter so much to you as the author? How would you answer that question? This book,
you know, for a long time I've been teaching in different levels, if you wanna call it that, whether it's, um, teaching yoga teachers or teaching, uh, in, um, uh, in businesses about innovation and creativity and, and breath, breath work and mindfulness and all these kind of areas.
And I thought. Isn't it? It seems like it's important, or people have been asking me, well, what's your, you know, thought behind all this? And I really started to reflect. And when I came up with the, uh, atomic awareness idea, I was like, yeah, this says pretty much most of the things that I really wanna say in terms of specifically the idea of how we craft our life in the best way.
Because all the tools in the world aren't gonna help us if we don't really listen to what we actually want.
Hmm. And that's super, I think, at least for me, it was super difficult because it's, it's kind of trapped under layers of what other people want. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Yeah.
And you have this beautiful story of Rumi and shas.
Maybe you can tell that, because I think it illustrates the point really well.
Yeah. So, um, Rumi, for those people who don't know, is a, a Persian poet. Um, and he was written around 750 years ago, and he was the kind of person who was like a leader in his community. So he was already a, if you want to call it, like, a, more than a religious leader, because at that time it wasn't like pure, like religion and state.
It was like, you know, he was like a wise man of his, uh, town and, uh, and everything. And, um, he had followers, he had teachers. I mean, he had, uh, students, uh, disciples if you wanna call him that. He was like, and he had a big family as well. So he had everything taken care of. He was like one of those people who was like a statesman, you know, like a, an elder statesman, not, although he wasn't that old at that time.
And, um, and then coming through, was this. Wandering teacher, uh, Aish, A per a Sufi, a person who was just like, uh, living close to the essence of what a person could do. His name was shams of Tab and he. Met Rumi one time, and when he met Rumi, uh, it was like an explosion of light, right? For, for Rumi. He was like, what?
In fact, the first encounter, it's of course, you know, it's not a hundred percent maybe, uh, historically accurate, was that Rumi was teaching. Um, and, and Shams was walking by and he is like, well, what do you know about it? And uh, Rumi said, well, I know all this stuff. And he's like, yeah, yeah, prove it. And he, and he, and he took one of Rumi's books and he threw it into this, this fountain and all this, you know, the students that were around him and everything got like really upset.
And, um, and he said, you know, what are you doing to my books? And he said, what are you doing, you know, to, to these books? So he pulls it out, and when he pulls the book out, it's completely dry, right? It's not destroyed. And this was this beginning of their, you know, relationship because there are other stories about how they, how they met and the things that they did.
But ultimately, um. When they started to really ignite one another, um, shams basically moved into, uh, Rumi's house and almost took over and alienated the family. And, uh, it, it was like a real switch for Rumi, um, a couple of years after this. So they, they had this kind of intense relationship for, um, quite a long time.
Um, then Rumi died, Mysteria, I mean, uh, shams died mysteriously. They even questioned whether he was like, uh, killed by some of the followers. But by that time that he left, um, Rumi was transformed. He was a man of letters before. He was a man of distinction. And then he became a, a poet of the heart. And most of the people who know Rumi now know of some of the 5,000 poems that he wrote about his love and intense beauty and connection to, uh.
To the world. He's the one that created this kind of, uh, idea of like the swirling dervishes, this dance. He's like, like the founder of all this kind of thought. And of course there were other great Persian poets at that time, but he was one that connected so much with the human heart and that's what kind of made him accessible to the wider world as well, I think.
Is it fair to say that the character of, of Rumi represents order, uh, represents in a lot of ways what society kind of dictates us. This is what success looks like, like formal power following things like that, and incomes chaos in one way, but also aliveness. Is that a interpretation that you would say is, is the, the essence of the story?
A hundred percent. It was like he had everything in order. His life, for the lack of a better word, was like perfect. You know, if you looked at him from the outside, you'd be like, he's the most, one of the most respected person in his community. He was rich, he had a nice family, he had people that relied on him.
And then there was something that was still missing. And when he found it, it was like chaos and, you know, tumultuous time. But then it led him to really be, um, a poet of the heart.
Hmm.
And, uh, I think that,
that's so interesting because in, in the modern equivalent, I, I do feel that the, that's part of, of so many people struggle, right?
I have all of these things that society has told me I should go after, yet somehow I deeply know within myself that this can't really be it. Right?
Yeah. You know, a lot of people they make like, um. They, they visit these areas. So like when you go to a retreat or you go to burning Mat, something like that, you're entering into this, uh, tumultuous, uh, uh, let's say spiritual psychospiritual dimension.
But then often we retreat back to our regular lives. So we get a little bit of a, a small picture into this. But to integrate that is a whole different thing because it doesn't mean that you're going off and giving away your life and becoming something completely other. It's that in the moments that you're actually living, you are embracing that side of yourself as well.
So it's not like one or the other. It's not like going on vacation and then coming back and working intensely. It's like having this intense fire for life, dancing for life all the time.
Yeah. It's super interesting. The things that pop up in my head now is that, so me and my wife, we've just made a huge life move.
We live in a different country, a different city, and one of the things that we've noticed in our own. Path is that we've been on this very clear kind of hedonic treadmill, but also a kind of a scarcity slash builder treadmill. Like always investing for the next episode. Always like whenever, uh, whenever we, uh, get to the next step, that's when we are supposed to be happy or whatever.
But, but that never ends up coming. That feeling of truly alive and content in the, the kind of ferocity of, of that moment. Right. Like, it, it's visceral in, in the strength of here and now is where we live, not into years from now. Mm-hmm. And we're trying to remind our ourself of, okay, for this next chapter that we're building now, a huge element of, of what we want to achieve there is really the, the feeling of that life is now.
Mm-hmm. We're, we're not saving life for a later step. Right?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and I think this. Uh, obviously this concept comes from, we've both been to a lot of retreats. Me and Hannah, we've done a lot of self-development work, so, so like the, probably the essence of the idea of why we want this comes from somewhere, right?
But really trying to integrate it into the day to day is, I don't know, at times it feels like such a wonderful luxury to even be able to think about, but at times it does feel daunting as well. Mm. I know. Because we're so habituated into always saving up for whatever the next step is, you know?
Mm. When I heard, um, from you, because we've known each other a a bit through the years and, um.
I was so happy because it felt like you were doing exactly this type of journey. Uh, but integrating it in a, you know, there's a good word in Swedish, a Sun way, you know, like with responsibility, right? You have kids and all that stuff. So you, you, you wanted a different life. You didn't wait forever. You put things in place to make it happen, and at the same time, you made huge changes that were better for your everyday life.
Right? That's the thing. I mean, we need a, a everyday life that's full of, you know, joy and Yeah. Spending time with our kids if we have kids or just dancing or going to the mountains or whatever it might. And if we don't do those things, like you said now, when if like, you know, like when are we gonna do it?
Like,
yeah. I don't know if my experience of it, because it's been an exhausting year of, of change, to be fair, uh, I don't know if my experience is that. Either you could say that it's accessible to really anyone. It's more about you have to think about the ecosystem that supports that vision. And it, and it, it is at times, it can feel like a complex puzzle with, especially for us, it's like I have, uh, a new company, a new location, doing all the business, uh, more or less remotely, and we need to finance that.
And there's new schools and there there's a, a long list of, of things that, that needs to come in place. On the other hand, it's like dead simple too. Like, it, it's more like, take the decision as a unit and then just tackle the next thing. So once we actually took the decision, I think that was, at least for me, I, I don't think it's the same for, for Hannah, my wife.
Uh, but for me, the, the bigger, uh, conquest was the decision of doing it. That was the harder journey for me. And I, at least for me, we, we talked about this concept just before we put the cameras on. How good can stand in the anime, um, as the enemy of great. I think I lived a really good life. Yeah. And there's so much security in that.
And you can be a security junkie and I have been a security junkie for sure, for a long time. And being able to say. And it's been my wife's frustration. She's been the one that says, but this can't be it. Yeah. And initially I, I remember this was super threatening to me because I interpreted it as, you know, it's my fault that it's not more.
But once I understood it, and once I integrated, especially, I did a lot of, of like shadow work over the summer dealing with a lot of, of like the core fears and getting them in out in the light. And once that was, I don't think that's ever gonna be done, but at least done to a certain, uh, extent. Once that was done, it was more lightness around, yes, this is what we want to do and want to do together.
Mm-hmm. Once you make a decision, sometimes like the things fall into place and it's when we don't really make a full on decision when we hedge our bets or when we have the plan
percent.
Yeah. It's so strange. Um, someone asked me. The other, the other day only, um, uh, a friend of mine, she's like, oh, you know, um, do you still wanna do, like, things that I used to do?
I used to make films, companies and stuff like that. And I was like, um, I've decided that I just have to say no. I, I'm gonna do, you know, I'm gonna do atomic awareness and I'm gonna do my novels and my screenplays of scripts or whatever, and I'm not gonna go back. That's it. It's gone, you know?
Mm.
Um, and in that is a real strength, you know?
Mm. And whatever works out, you do, it's, it works out somehow, right. Whatever it is. But in the decision is the thing, uh,
there's wisdom in, in understanding that sometimes things need to die.
Yeah.
Because like it's been some of the things, like they've served you really well for like 20 years, right? You're emotionally attached to them as something that was your career or was your source of whatever, power, fame, influence.
And now they're like, they're not serving me anymore. And that, I think there's, there's something beautiful into, 'cause we talk a lot about like failing in like entrepreneur, uh, culture and I think that's really interesting. But like, there's a difference between like failing and quitting and like quitting from a place of that chapter has now passed it's time for me to, to venture into the new purpose.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like we, um, I have teenage boys and, you know, um, I, I, I, you know, remember there are certain, and I talk to them about certain, certain moments, even now that they go because they're trying to figure out what they're gonna do for, while I'm like, you, you got lots of options, but some options are closed, you know, like they loved football, right.
For instance. Um, and at a certain point. If you are not there, then in terms of career, then that's it. You know? Yeah. If you're, if you're 18 already and you're not on the under, on the, uh, you know, the young, the youth, uh, team for the pro, in the pro league, you're, you're gone. You know? There, the guys are already there and so there's a, there's a, there's a point where it's physically things cut off, but when it happens to, uh, professionally or, or in our emotional world, we, we tend to hold on things for a lot
longer.
Yeah. Because there's no such clear point. Right. Yes. I remember that as well. That point when that came into my life when I used to watch the Olympics, and I could almost say if I tried hard enough, that could be me, and then all of a sudden when I was like, 25, no, that can't be me. It is pretty clear. But in, in.
But in the, uh, kind of area of, I don't know, knowledge work or, or the, uh, get a bigger house, those kind of areas, they're so open-ended. You can, you can chase those ghosts all the way through, right?
Yeah. And so it's finding what, like, also like identifying how we feel. I think often we skip over how we really feel.
And sometimes to go there, we need, um, uh, yeah, a bit of silence or, you know, uh, tools for that, like meditation or something to really listen to like, oh, actually, how do I feel? Um, there are people who are pure, purely execution oriented. Um, and whether they're happy or not is another question, but they can get a lot of things done.
That's, that's one thing to do, but then to actually make a life that you feel is integrated and supporting you and that you can, you know, where you, where you're dancing through life, that doesn't mean that we don't do the hard things, but that we, uh, when we do things, we do them in the right direction.
Right?
Yeah. How much of this is a, is a question of, of like, you really feel in, in your bones that this mission is my purpose. How much of it is that versus other things, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's where the fear things come in. Like, so for instance, I'm making a certain amount of money or having a certain title, you know, and you think, oh, I wanna, I've met a lot of people who wa like, wanted to be the CEO, you know?
Yeah. And they work and work and they get to be the ceo and they're like, this is terrible. Don't,
like, I'm like, you know, like, I, I mean I, my aspirations because I'm basically a creative, like a creative, right. And I've been a professional creative in the past. I'm, I'm not, I wasn't thinking, oh, CEO, you know, but when I met men, met, um, mostly, mostly men, but some women who become CEOs, they're like, this is just a giant job now.
Rather than all the other thing, all the other things come with it, you know, pay and all that stuff. But sometimes it's not exactly what you think, you know, it's interest. Right.
One of the things that you feel. Through all the years of you working in kind of the yogic traditions and so forth, what are the things, specifically successful people, like, the lies that they tell themselves, and what are the, the things that they've taught themselves to ignore in terms of signs of, of this might not be actually that aligned towards what's truly me?
Hmm. That's a good question. I feel like, um, I feel like there's a longing. Um, and, and, and there's also a space there, especially, you know, uh, with, with men, um, that have worked themselves into kind of corporate world. There's, there can be a longing for, uh, a deeper connection to themselves and to other people.
It can be lonely to be feeling like you're driven, you know? Um, and maybe you have like a men's group, uh, that do things or activities, but maybe you are kind of, uh, missing this. Yeah. Deeper connection. And as soon as you open up to it and meet men that are doing this, there is like a, a feeling like of, oh, I belong here.
You in this.
Yeah.
Uh, so I think that that's one of those things is a kind of a, like, it's cut off in a way. Um, I think women in general maybe have been more open to these kinds of activities. Um, but that doesn't mean that's, yeah. Yeah. But also keeping them separate. They, they don't wanna like, you know, integrate the two sides or multiple sides into their everyday life in a way, or feel like it wouldn't be accepted.
Yeah.
It's a super interesting concept in general, how we like to keep domains separate. Mm. And I, I personally think that's, I don't know, like. You're not ski schizophrenic in a sense, like why would you treat your, your retreat self separate from your leadership self in a sense?
Yeah.
And the depth that you can find in a truth of, of like how your fears manifest, for example, in your life.
Of course that's gonna impact your, your ability to be present in a leadership position. Uh, in a leadership situation That's tough perhaps, or whatever. It's,
you know, we could go into the, uh, the yoga thing a little bit here because this is the kind of thing, because when I'm teaching yoga philosophy to people who wanna become yoga teachers, um, we have to go through things like the chakras.
Now if I'm talking to, let's say the typical business person, my brother or somebody else who, who isn't interested in this at all, if I start going onto the chakras and then there are these colors and then each of the animals that represent all this kind of stuff, um, they're like, this is just like too weird.
I think one of the problems with people who are totally into, let's say this pseudo spiritual world.
Yeah.
That they're missing the point. There, there are no colors, you know, there is no animal, there's no like symbol. All those things are, uh, ways to help us understand our own psychology and our own physiology and our own, uh, let's say spiritual state better.
And once we separate, but they're also really good metaphors. So idea is to say, okay, you know, if this isn't a color, you know, that's necessarily associated with this chakra. Um, and the way I use, it's the, the base chakra at the, the muara chakra is, is red, right? And you go, you know, red, orange, uh, blue, and then you get to the heart.
Now if you already use red, you, you can't use. The heart color, which everyone else thinks is red, right? So then they say, oh, it's green, or maybe pink, you know, because it's like red and, and it's like, it's just, ' cause there's some, they already used the red, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, um, so the question is, when you're working with yourself and using this style of metaphor, um, what can it help you to understand about yourself?
All the other stuff around it is made up.
Yeah.
You know, it's a story. Uh, it's a, it's a, it's a story that maybe helps us to understand ourselves and maybe that story doesn't appeal to us. Maybe, you know, the hero's journey appeals to us more. Yeah. It doesn't matter what the story is that we use as long as we get to these areas.
And that's what we all need, I think. And we're all, most of us are longing for.
Yeah, I agree. And the, the, there's something, I dunno, my, my journey is really from one who's been a hundred percent. Logical and quite prideful in that, you know, horoscopes are, are mumbo jumbo or, or whatever. Honestly, horoscopes is one of the few things that I still struggle with.
My wife is super spiritual and, and that still gets me. But, um, I think there's, it's almost impossible to understand some of these concepts unless you have some very, very. Present and kind of powerful, at least taste of some area of it. And, and then it's like, at least for me, like the first time I, a hundred percent through it was through, I think it was extended breath work and meditation that was almost like three, four hours long, just one thing.
And by the end of it, I was a hundred percent convinced, and I still am to this day, that I saw my grandparents in the room and they were with me. And it was so beautiful and so light, and it was so powerful. Um, and that was like my first like real taste of it. And then everything kind of, no, I wouldn't say everything, but a lot of things that, like I know with my logic brain that they were probably not there, right?
But the experience of it was there and the value and the calmness. There. What else then that I've said that that's just mumbo jumbo. Could I get value out of it? Doesn't at all mean that I, I need to go on a, on a mission to, to tell you that you need to be believe the same things. The only thing that that matters is that I found a lot of value out of that calmness, reflection, uh, sense of belonging in a way that I hadn't done in, in like, I can't remember that I ever did, you know?
Mm. So some type of gateway drug almost into it. Is, is that your experience or is that uniquely mine? Would you say that there's some No, I don't wanna use the word awakening because that's overselling it, I think, but
yeah, I think most people have, uh, let's say experiences. Uh mm. Um, of this type. Um, they're transformative because there's a reality to them that is beyond what we would normally accept, and yet yeah.
We know they're undeniable because it's a subjective reality.
Hmm.
Uh, I also, this is a good point I think to point out, you know, we experience the world through and interact to the world through our senses.
Hmm.
Now, purely biologically, we know that there's a limitation on our senses, right? We only see a certain wavelengths.
We only hear certain amount of level. So a, a dog for instance, very. Clearly here's better. Smells better. Right? Um, we see in a certain number of colors, some animals don't see in color at all. Mm-hmm. Right? Black and white and, you know, value-based, um, you know, bats are using sonic ways, you know? Right. If you think of a fly's eye, you know how, how looking through that eye must be what they perceive in the world.
So our perception of the world is limited by our, the tools that we have to sense the world.
Yes.
Knowing that means that we're missing one whole hell of a lot.
Yeah, that's a good point. I've actually never heard that before. Yeah, continue. Interesting.
Yeah. So, so because, uh, we know our perception is limited to this, then when we have extra perceptions because of, let's say, an intense practice like, uh, breath work or we, we remember our dream or, uh, we do some psychedelics or we, um, have a traumatic experience and things hit us.
We have a hallucination or whatever. All those things are also true, as true as what we think, um, this conversation is, you know? Um, because their subjective levels of experience that we have,
yeah.
And everything that we have is, is separate. You know, everything that we have is based on those, on those, those perceptions and everything we believe about the world or experience the world.
Is this something that you would kind of s say that you haven't had this experience at all?
Hmm.
You could argue. Well, why? Should I aim for it? Uh, if that makes sense. Like what, what's the value of it?
This is a good question. Um, I think that there's only value if we feel that the life that we're living isn't the one that we wanna live.
Hmm.
So, um, I I, I like to, you know, obviously we all have our, you know, people that we rely on, right? And I, I, or we go back to and, and have relationships with, and I think of my brother, um, he's not interested in this kind of stuff at all. And yet, um, if I talked to him about it, he wouldn't be negative. He'd be like, oh yeah, whatever.
You're just like weird. And yet he's, he's managed to make a really nice life with a long-term wife and kids. He loves his kids. You know, all those kind of things are in place. So he doesn't feel, if you ask him, he doesn't feel in any way discontent, you know, about things like that. That's fine. You know, like, um, so I think that, um, I think that that's the thing, you know, like we're all searching for.
This, uh, level of life that we feel is beautiful. And if we're not living that life, then we, we almost have our own re our own selves maybe to blame, if that's not the right word, but we our own responsibility to go for that thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and life has seasons and chapters as well, right?
You could be completely content in the version of you that was in your thirties and now you're in your forties and you realize that the version that was satisfactory to you then might not be now anymore for, for a hundred different reasons. Your kids are older or you've had some experience or whatever.
I remember reading, um, David Dadada's book, the Way of a Superior Man, and he was talking about mission and purpose and direction in life. And, and one of the things that was really like, it was very simple frame, but kind of clicked for me. It was, he was discussing how do you know that the 'cause he sees purpose in like you have multiple purposes and, and they teach you something.
And then once you've finished with that mission, it's time to, to get onto to the next purpose. But how do you know when it's time? And he said that usually what happens, especially to men is that things that felt very important, that meeting or or whatever it is to you before suddenly seems trivial and unimportant.
The same thing. And I started watching for those patterns in my own life. Like, does this still feel important? And for me, some of the things that I was spending a lot of time on didn't feel important. Yeah. And it is so simple. It's so simple. Yeah. And the only realization for me was, okay, this purpose has served us to time to figure out what the next purpose is.
And then obviously that's a big question, how do you figure that out? But. Perhaps another podcast. I dunno. Um,
I think that the, like with, with those, I, I, I, I've read his book, so I know, I know that, and I, I think that there's, um, how we navigate life is one thing, and how we navigate ourselves is another thing.
Um,
interesting.
And yeah, I think that,
you know, this, this self that we are traveling with, it's changing, but it's still there, right? Mm-hmm. So you are physically, you're not the same self that you were, but it, I asked you, you know, about your past. You, it would, it's you. That's like looking out through the eyes of that time. Mm-hmm. And that u is is not necessarily unchanging.
'cause you can grow psychologically and you can grow, you know, maybe spiritually, but you, but, but ultimately there's a U that's behind all this. I think sometimes we feel like the measures are changing and they should change through the seasons of our life in, in a sense because we're physically, uh, changing, you know?
Hmm.
And yet that essence and connection to that essence is like a much simpler thing. And I think that, um, it's really, if we really start to listen into that as much as possible and like, take away all of the ideas of success and measurements of how our life might be and all that, and get down to that essence, the questions become a lot simpler at every stage.
Hmm. I
think, um, it's easy to think our way forward, but really it's a matter of feeling our way forward, I think.
And it's super difficult for somebody who lives up in their brain. I can attest.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes I wonder that, that's one of the things that I, I wrote about, I remember my journals. 'cause I, I've, whenever I stressed, I tend to only live above my shoulders.
Like whatever's down there is, is is partially not me, you know? And, um, I had almost like a defense, uh. Speech written out because I, I, I can sometimes feel that like the, my thoughts are so vivid. Uh, and I remember thi this was also in relationship to, to what was happening with my wife, um, because we were in a, in a very stressful situation in general.
So, so communication wasn't working really good because we were both stressed, but we also had a not that much time in practice. Um, and I was like, yeah, but I make so much of like the internal world in my head. F can at times feel so real to me. But I know also that there's such a huge difference when I actually connected to my body and my feelings and all of the, the practices of, of, well, we've talked about breath works, but, but you can reach your, your body through, through multiple means from, from dance to whatever, you know?
Um, there, there's some, this is one of the concepts that I still struggle a lot with. There is so much wisdom in. If you connect to it, and I, and I think coming back to, to your book and awareness, maybe we can spend some time on, on talking about what are the practices in, in very practical term, uh, that, that you'd say that these are for, for people getting into this for the first time.
Because we're not trying to convert the already converted here. Really? Yeah. What, what would that be?
The, the number one and simplest practice is, uh, very simple short meditations. Um, and, you know, there are plenty online. You know, I have some on my website there. You know, they're, they're, they're, they're everywhere, you know?
Um, um, and the reason that they're good is because what we're just learning to do is, is to still the mind or to let the mind be whatever it needs to be. This mind that's moving all the time, there's an openness for, um. For feeling how we feel now, a lot of times there's a resistance right away. It's like, I can't sit still, or I can't think of this, or whatever.
And that's exactly, that's the practice. Maybe it's three to five minutes. You know, I think one of the reasons why in the, I guess, sixties and seventies that transcendental meditation was so powerful is that, uh, it was devised to work for, uh, the the every man.
Mm.
Um, two times a day, 20 minutes a day. Uh, and then you're given like a secret code where a mantra, right, which is just somewhere that you repeat, and then you just let that come in and that can take over your mind.
Mm.
Um, and you're just maybe breathing and concentrating on the in and out breath. Right. So those things eventually, if you meditate often, then those things disappear as well, and you just enter into the state where you're breathing,
drifting thoughts. Is that what it disappears, you mean? Or.
Yeah, the, it'll help disperse the drifting thoughts if you have something to concentrate on.
Mm.
So that type of practice is, is excellent. Um, I think that's the, the number one thing. It's also can help us when we're in a reactive state. Um, and this is, uh, because if we have some practice in place and we know that, oh, I feel more calm now, there, there, uh, then we can shift into that. So for instance, you're pissed off, you just had a shitty phone call or whatever, um, and then you know, your partner comes in and you or your kids come in and you're like, you're already like angry or frustrated or whatever from some external, uh, influence.
Now that we always talk about this, you know, whenever you get into things like stimulus and the response, it's our responsibility, how we respond. We know this. So if we have a practice of meditation, then at one, at that moment when we really feel that thing. We automatically, instead of lashing out or whatever, we automatically go into
just that big breath in the sigh out, um, helps us to recalibrate the nervous system. And if anyone was watching and they just tried that, you feel right away if you take a big breath in and then just like, I mean, I can feel the tingling in my skin.
Yeah, me too.
Right?
Yeah.
That's changing our biochemistry.
It's changing the connection to our nervous system and it gives us a sense of softness. So just maybe if we did three of those, that switch from the, um, sympathetic to the parasympathetic nervous system is something that is biological. So it's a very physical, clear way to recenter us physiologically and mentally.
So that's the number one thing. If you, if you're doing that, then I think that's a great. Number one step. Then there are all, all kinds of things about listening to yourself and everything like that. More, uh, journaling type things, you know, that come later. That's the number one, first step for anyone. Uh,
I had a such a funny conversation on, I was on a retreat, uh, here a couple of months ago, and, and I had a, a, uh, a friend on the retreat and he, he was talking about that sometimes it's a little bit like potty training.
Uh, so he had a toddler at that point, and he was like, the first thing that they learn is I'm wet from having peed myself. So actually recognizing the feeling of, of wet pants. The second one is. Understanding I am now peeing like that sensation and, and connecting that sensation to the coming wet pants or whatever, and then finally having, okay, I'm about to pee.
Uh, so, so that's kind of the, the progression of that one. Um, and a lot of times, especially when you're like really in that aroused state, and, and we laughed about it because like, obviously for me, it could be in, in a, in a conflict with my partner, for example, taking a little bit of the edge of, and just stating to myself.
When I'm reacting from that agitated state, like, oh, am I am now peeing, this is what's happening. That's the extent of it. So next time I'll, I'll try to catch myself before this happens, but it, it's not, it's not more than that. And I have the tools to, to kinda recenter myself now after having done this work for, for quite some time.
But I, I often feel that I, especially in the beginning of my journey, because you start to recognize your patterns, especially the stress patterns. And I had a tendency to become very, uh, hard on myself. Like I failed because I couldn't hold myself, uh, in my agitated state, uh, when I was then, uh, had an extra stimuli from, from kids or, or partners or whatever.
And I, I used to be really hard on myself. This was a failure and just taking the edge of it as a failure and more like, yeah. Still, still potty training, man.
Yeah. Well, we're always training. This is, and this is one of the things about, uh. This work? Is that it? It's never done. I mean, maybe, you know, there are some, you know, beings who are completely, uh, I don't know.
You know, people talk about like the Dalai Lama, whatever, right? And I'm like, yeah. The Dalai Lama, uh, he seems like very beautiful. I haven't met him. Right. You know, all that stuff. And I'm sure he is like enlightened and all that, but he doesn't have kids, you know,
doesn't know the struggle of waking up every night for six years straight.
Yeah. Right. He, he has, he doesn't have that feeling like, I have responsibility for this person. He might say, oh yes, I have responsibility for the old Tibetan people, but it's not the same thing. So if you haven't been, been through some real, like, stuff like that, that you have a personal connection with, it's very hard, um, to feel like you're always alive.
So the best thing is to just keep getting back to it. Um, a lot of times, you know, in any of this, this is an interesting thing, I think about, people talk about manifestation. You talk about like moving and, and everything, right? We, we have a vision and um, we put things in order and then we fulfill that and maybe we celebrate it.
Maybe we don't celebrate it, but we should probably celebrate it. But at that point, when it's kind of, let's say in place,
um,
then it's almost as if we forgot the conditions that it took for us to get there. And those conditions most had to do with aligning, deciding. Uh, making a mood board or DA vision or a list wherever you work or whatever.
And then, and then executing on those things in general, you know, um, sometimes we'd lose sight of what got us to where we are and then we, but if we keep revisiting this, it's, you don't have to do a lot of new stuff all the time.
Mm.
Uh, it's fun, right? I mean, you know, you wanna try the next, uh, retreat or the next group or whatever.
Um, and yet the main thing, the main thing and the simplest thing is to get back to that core self.
And how do you go from, so I, I think the ability to observe thought is mega, right? It's the foundation of. A lot of things, but how do you move from, because that's also a little bit of a, a passive behavior is shutting out the noise in order for like that, that little violin in the rock concert.
That might be actually what, what you want to, to hear, but it's so drowned out by, by all of the other noise. How do you move from, from just quietening down in order to hear that, into something that feels more active when it comes to alignment and, and living more towards your purpose, would you say?
Alright, so I, um, so if, for instance, when you go into this meditation, it's not totally about like quieting that noise, it's about listening more carefully. So if that's one part, and then we'll get back to that in a second. And the, and the other part I just forgot I was gonna say, so let's, let's dive into this a little more.
But let's say that you're listening to a very sophisticated piece of music. It doesn't have to be like classical music. It could be any, anything. And you start listening and you hear, you know, the, the theme, you hear the singer, right? You might hear the drums, and then if you really start to listen, you can follow the baseline.
Boom. Right? You start hearing and you really hear, and you can tune yourself into that. And you can almost selectively choose to listen to that baseline if you really start to listen. Right? And we've all, who've who, any of us who like music, we've done things like this, we've started to listen, like, oh yeah.
And then maybe we can start to listen to the court, you know, the piano part or whatever. And that kind of listening is like part of the whole process.
Hmm.
There is this chatter. Most of the time the chatter isn't our actual thoughts. It's weird. In fact, there's very little thinking in this voice. You know, it's mostly like the complaining voice that is the loudest.
And when we get through that, then we start to hear the next level of voice, which might be, I choose not to be this kind of thing. I, I wanna think about solutions. Then the other thing comes, right? And then even deeper than that, it's actually, I'm so freaking lucky. I have this wonderful life. You know, I, I can't believe that.
And then this comes in with, uh, oh, we have to do this a planning side. And then it's like, it's gonna be all this problem. Yeah. We start going deeper and deeper, and ultimately if we keep going deeper, we, we will find, uh, a kind of a, a pure, spacious silence. And in that silence, that's where the real shifts happen.
And at the same time, all these voices are happening within us simultaneously. It's just that we're not like listening through, like really honing in on them, I think.
Yeah. You.
I'm, I'm, I'm slightly switching subject, but it is what arose in me when you were talking. Um, so I just switched up a lot in, in my life and now find myself as an entrepreneur. And we talked about again before we turned the cameras on, that I, I really struggle with prioritization at this point 'cause there's always stuff to do and I'm quite capable in terms of doing stuff right.
And, and what I find without the distancing is that I just do stuff, but the stuff are, are like low impact. So the ability, at least for me to, to, um, like the further down I go, the more clarity it becomes. So I need distance, I need brain shut off from work mode. That's a huge factor in me being effective at work.
Uh, so I constantly, like these weeks has been a reminder of. Visit the mountains.
Hmm.
And don't record stuff that you're gonna do on your to-do list when you come home. Don't even bring the earphones or whatever it might be. You need space in order to get clarity. That's been absolutely huge. I don't know how, how well it kind of connects to, to the, the layers of, of voice that you just spoke about, but there's something in for sure that higher up in, in, in the, in the chain of voices or in the tree of voices, like the unimportant stuff has a frustrating tendency to kind of elbow their way to the, to the front of the queue.
Yeah. It, you made me think of the second thing that I was gonna say just a second ago, and that, and that is the flow state. And, uh, it can come from an activity like running, but it could also come from something else that takes our concentration in a positive way. So, for instance, I like to play the piano.
Um, maybe it's coding, maybe it's something that's totally related to exactly the thing that you're doing,
but
that you spend a lot of time on the busy work, the admin, and less time actual thing, which might be whatever, creating something you need to do whatever. I think that, um, allowing ourselves and giving ourselves, especially with all the distractions, the frigging, you know, uh, dopamine kicks that we get from constant scrolling to, to step away, to step into something that we can enter into a flow state is another amazing way to, uh.
To go deeper because
some, can, can you help me? Uh, then I had a conversation, actually open a mountain on top, uh, here over the weekend with a friend, Philip. Um, and we were talking about that sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between what are actually distractions. That feels a little bit calming because you're so, uh, and we were talking about video games as an example.
Uh, so, um, it, it can feel in the short term calming because you're so engaged that you don't hear your thoughts, but it's really something quite different versus what we're talking about now. So I was gently pushing back, um, 'cause he, he was like, yeah, I feel really, really stressed and I need like an outlet and I, I want to get back into to playing some video games and have time for that.
And I was like. Because I, I really identified like 10 years ago, that used to be my coping mechanism as well. I had video games on and a, and a video show running. So I was so, like, I had so much impressions that it was finally quiet, so I felt that it was relaxing to me. Um. But having experienced something else, I, I also feel like yeah, but that's, that's a numbing behavior and I, and, and I think there's a lot of those types of hobbies that you can kind of tell yourself that these are these moments of flow state, but you're in a little bit, you're, you're confusing it as well and, and tricking yourself perhaps?
Or is it, or is this me being an, uh, meditation elitist up in the mountain?
Alright, so, um, I think the video game thing is a good question. The reason is, is that when you're using the video game, you're definitely igniting, you know, this, uh, dopamine, cortisol, like you're, you're, you're, you're zapping yourself constantly with, uh, the internal chemicals of
Yeah.
Basically war and fighting, right. Um. I was surprised. I'm not a, like a big video gamer, but I, I started to play a video game with my kids, right. And I, I was, it was like a really simple one kid level, you know, maybe they were like 10 or whatever. And what they, they would've these little card, it was like a, it's, it's online, but it was a card thing, and you put a card down and then they'd go out and they'd fight each other, right?
Um, and um, I started to feel like at one point my neck, my pulse was like going boom, boom, boom. And I was like, so I was angry in the video, in this little video game where I was planning to be playing with a 9-year-old in like some other country. And I was like, this is not good. It is stealing my attention.
I'm not thinking about other stuff, but it's also igniting parts of my, uh, chemical system that aren't being, are aren't, that aren't healthy. In that sense, right. And or helping me in that sense, calm. So it feels like we're focused and we are focused, but we're also filling ourselves with our natural high of, uh, dopamine and cortisol and all these kind of things.
Yeah. We're basically, we're fighting. Yeah. Um, and, uh, so in the sense of blocking our mind out, maybe it's good. Maybe there's a comradery side to it That's good and all that stuff. It could be, um, I think that to enter into a flow state, usually, uh, usually, um, there's like a feeling of not, productivity isn't the right word, but meaning
Hmm.
There's like meaning there, you know?
Hmm.
Uh, now it could be playing a sport, you know, um, it could be, uh, you know, painting or drawing or writing or playing the piano or whatever. Um, those are much simpler and they're not. Triggering so much of these kind of impressions, chemicals. Yeah. But I don't know, there's probably, um, studies on this that show the level of, you know, uh, stress hormones and things like that, that are being created in these different environments.
Um,
I had a neuroscientist on who, who explained it to me as what we really, if we, if we look at it like long term versus short term, what we really enjoy as the kind of felt experience is the rise of dopamine, the rise of it. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily high levels of dopamine. Mm-hmm. So that's kind of the, the, the.
A problem with this kind of dopamine, uh, phones that we have, that they rise your dopamine really, really quickly. So you get a, a, a really short, intense burst of, of that feeling, of, of contentment or purpose or, or something like that. But it's very, very short. So if you want to optimize for, for more of a, a day, that feels purposeful, not just a moment that feels purposeful.
I don't think every anybody feels that it feels purposeful to, to scroll Instagram, but at least satisfactory in the short term. Mm. But what if you wanna optimize for, for like your whole day or your whole week to be like that? What you want to do is to optimize for a slow rise, a slow and steady rise of dopamine, and then.
Activities that are much slower obviously makes a ton more sense. And after having heard that, I, I think that to me was yes. What I want is the slowness of the rise. So it impacts the way I, I shape my mornings, for example, tremendously, like mm-hmm. Uh, I never start out with phones until we leave the kids at school.
Yeah. It sounds pretentious, but it it makes a huge difference.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it's like simple hacks as well. Like the, the simplest hack for us was having the, the charging station in, in, in the kitchen and having an old school clock because that eliminated my, my need to pick up the phone. 'cause I suck when I've actually picked up the phone.
Can't put it down. But I'm quite good at not picking it up if it's not in front of me, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes such a difference for the clarity I can bring to the day and the, the enjoyment of, of the day as a total.
I agree. I think that's the, the key, you know, to, is to find, um, systems that work.
Systems are a big thing in terms of obvious habit building, but also in terms of living our life in a, in a, in a positive way. We need some systems in place, um, that we're conscious of when we're not in, in the, in the mix, right? Yeah. When we can clearly, and we're going, okay, what can we do here? This is a good system.
Let's go with this for a while. Then you can assess things, but making a system that feels like, yeah, this is good. You know,
besides meditation, what are great systems? Do you feel?
Um, I think the, uh. One of the things is that I think you named it, is turning off, uh, as much as possible the, the stuff, um, from the outside, you know?
Yeah.
Um, whether it's, uh, having a, a wind down. Everyone talks about wind downs. I don't personally know anyone except for people who are online saying that they have wine downs that has wind downs. But, um, what's
wind down for those people who haven't heard it before?
Ah, well, like you'll turn off all your screens.
You won't have any TV for two hours before you go to bed. Um, you know, all that stuff. Maybe you change the lighting, you know, and then you walk around your house bored. Right. Um, it's probably a good thing, right? I, I don't do it even though I know that it's good when I do do it, when I do not turn on in the TV and don't watch anything and just chat to my partner or I, um, um, yeah, I don't get onto the Instagram thing and start
scrolling.
I love the, the kind of biological explanation, why good systems. Has a tendency to feel like high cost of emotion because we all, I think we would all agree that when we're in, uh, the habit of training, you could almost never imagine yourself not training or when you're in the habit of, of spending the last hour before bed just with your partner without, uh, a phone and, and you're in that habit, you could, like, how could we ever live another life like this?
Yeah. But then you fall out. It's so easy to fall out of them, and it's, when you're out of them, it's so incredibly difficult to get back into them. It feels almost threatening. And I would love to have some type of type of like, how did this service evolutionarily? Why this was the path that, that the Darwin chose for us.
Yeah. It's a good question. I mean, you know, people like Huberman talk about the neuroscience of these things and they, there are, you know, like I, I read Dopamine Nation and it's a, I mean, there's a lot of very smart people sitting there thinking of ways to get you triggered. Hmm.
And
it doesn't take much because it's also an invisible thing.
Like let's say you are a drinker, um, it's like if you're not, if you say, oh, I'm not gonna have a drink, it's very hard. It's such, it's something, it's like it speaks to you and then you wanna go over there and have like a glass of wine or whatever, and then all of a sudden you have like five glass of wine and you're like, oh, and this similar thing with the, the, uh, the dopamine kick.
You have this thing and it just clicks once you get your phone, it's got you, right? You,
yeah. And it's subtle like that because you could have been really strong 14 times in terms of ignoring the notification and then you got got on the 15th time and they still get you, they still win in a sense.
And it's an obvious thing with the alcohol because you know the alcohol is a drug, right?
Mm.
You know that. Yeah. Yeah. No matter what you do, you know, it's a drug, but with the, the phone, you don't really understand. It's a drug that, it's a thing that's happening inside. You don't see it square, you know?
Yeah.
Like,
yeah. And, and it's tricky too because you could be, like, you could start out by answering an email that you have to do for something productive and then move, pivot from that into Instagram doing scrolling for two hours.
So, so like, it's not universally bad, or you can answer the call from your kid or whatever. So like the, the first action could actually be good. And then it's just that the follow-up actions are not good for you.
It's so crazy. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, we are, I, you know, I think about sometimes, so for instance, you, you have your, I have my phone here.
If I go to the toilet. I won't just go to the toilet. Right. I'll grab my phone and bring it in. I feel like I'm like a neanderthal, like a, a monkey or something. Like taking my little Yeah. Taking my little thing with me all the time.
Yeah.
And at some point I think we have to say, Hey, wait a minute, you know, I have a choice.
Yeah.
I don't have to carry this with me.
Yeah.
You know, I don't
even wanna, you also feel like a little bit stupid when you, when you leave your phone out and you go take a dump and it's like, what do I do now? And you start reading the old shampoo bottles that you did back in the nineties, you know? Feels so weird.
So
weird, right? Oh my gosh.
Hey, I wanna get back to, to the story of, story of Shams and Rumi. Uh, so one of the things that's interesting to me with that story is that Shams comes in and is kind of the disruptor of Rumi. So a lot of times, at least to, to my felt experience, uh. You could have people along the journey that kind of nudge you towards understanding that you probably need to do some work.
You have patterns from your past that are not serving you in a good way. But ultimately, I felt very strongly that this was a journey that I had to do so. So like what? What's the responsibility question here? And can you be a SHAS to somebody else's roommate? And is that a good thing to be? Or like how, how do you see these different power roles playing out?
So. We're talking about, uh, a different time in a different place. Uh, there was a system of like, let's say teacher and student. Um, even in the Socratic time, there's a teacher and student. Um, and then in India there's this kind of guru thing and Right. So there's a, in some cultures and places, there are these, uh, characters that are meant to be in a system, in place that are meant to help us grow.
Yeah.
Uh, in some degree, to some degree in the west, we used to have the church and there was some of these religious leaders who would capture people on, in all this kind of stuff. Um,
we used to have rites of passages more clearly as well as a society. That's something that I've thought a lot about, like you, the, the, the rite of passage into being a man or, or into being a father or something like that, that they're very like subdued in modern life.
Yeah. So I feel that, um, that same type of relationship is often hard to, let's say, find, um, those of us who are interested in opening up this side of things for whatever reason. Maybe we feel that was something missing, or maybe we just feel that this longing. Um, then there are things in place like, uh, you know, modern day type, guru type people who we can learn from, whether they're, um, you know, uh.
Whether they're, they're soft or hard, you know, like you got for the, the toxic masculinity with Andrew T and people like that, um, it's very easy to fall into those things if you're a young teenager and going through this kind of thing. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna,
yeah.
But those kind of characters emerge. So I think finding one where we actually feel good, and that's a hard thing.
So in a sense, you know, atomic awareness is that kind of like step, you could, you know, uh, work with this kind of material. There are people who are in this type of stuff, um, uh, you know, some people are following like satguru and all kinds of, you know, so there are, there are these characters. Whether you meet one personally, uh, is another question.
Uh, you know,
yeah. Maybe through the internet. Uh, you, you don't have to meet them personally either in the same way, but it's very dangerous because when, when you're in that state of you really feel that something's missing, this is not right. For whatever reason, you, you become a searcher. Hmm. Um, we're also very, uh, easy to be the prey, uh, with that openness because you're, you're searching for anything.
And I think probably a, a really good explanation behind the, the kinda Andrew Tates type people. You have masses of, of young boys specifically who feel that society used to be for them, and now it's not whatever they feel, but, and then there's this one authoritative figure that has a simple solution to it.
Um, so in the self world, this must be attention that has always existed. You've been in this world way more than I have been, and I've been a teacher in that world. Uh, if, if you allow that expression, um, yeah. How, how do you recognize as a searcher that this teacher is probably somebody that I would benefit from following?
It's so easy to get to, to fall into if you're feeling, let's say, vulnerable and you feel like you need something. I think there's a, it's easy to fall into. This person has all the answers, uh, kind
of
thing. This one person kind of thing.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I think that, yeah, I think it's a, it's a problem now as an adult, let's say a fully functional man or woman, right?
You have your own responsibility and you have to start to question, uh, you know, uh, what, what it is that you need and want. There's a saying, the Buddha, the Buddha said, um, wait, what was this? I can't remember if it was the Buddha that said it, but if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him. In other words, like, you know, yeah, right.
You, you are, um, you are not meant to be. Ultimately a follower. These are the whole idea of guru. Guru. The word means the light bringer, or the person that sheds light for you. So you see a head a little bit. They, they lighten the path. They're not meant to be the path.
Ah,
they're meant to just like light, put a light down.
So you see, oh, this is where I have to go. If you get too dependent on a person, uh, I think that you, you can get lost. Now, there is, in the yogic world, new yogic tradition, uh, a thing called bhati, which is devotion. It's very, very hard, uh, for, uh, a western person and certainly a western male to feel this, uh, devotion, um, for anyone else.
And, and, um, it's probably not the easiest path, right? Because you're meant to just be like, but you do see in, in like modern day churches, and there are certain, like, actually people who like follow Trump to wherever, right? They just see this guy Trump, Trump, whatever he says, right? So there are people who, who fall into that thing.
Um, but I think that that's, uh, yeah. And now when it comes to like the youth, I think we as adults have a responsibility when we see an Andrew Tate, and a lot of people did, uh, both in the self-help world, and anyone who had teenagers step tried to step up and say, would this guy's not okay? Yeah.
You
know?
Um, because this whole idea of this masculine figure, they come with these half truths and those half truths are really hard to argue with.
Yeah.
You know,
there's also, so I remember proposition to the, to the young mind, if, if you have your father that you're currently rebelling towards being the one that says that this character is probably not great, like, that creates even more magnetism towards that character.
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I remember, um, so, you know, my kids were right at the wrong age for Andrew Tates. Mm-hmm. We, we really deal with it. It was like, uh, COVID. He's online. They're online. And they were like 14 or whatever. And so it was like perfect.
Yeah.
Um, for him. And so it was a real struggle to get them off that.
And I remember one time, you know, he was like talking, he's like, why do I have to go to school? I'm like, yep. Yeah. You know, you do. You know, because you wanna learn and all kinds of stuff. All the normal things, right?
Yeah.
And he's like, but these teachers are unsuccessful, not that smart. I can learn more online, you know, and I'm like, and they don't drive a Bugatti or a Ferrari.
Yeah.
You know, and I say Aate all day, and he's got his university. I could learn from him. And two years I'll be driving a Ferrari.
Yeah.
And I look like muscly and I kickbox and all this kind of stuff. And you're like, yeah. You know, I, I, I personally think like a lot of times, you know, um, talking to like, let's say teachers and stuff, um, based here in Stockholm, like I can listen to, I can listen to the greatest minds.
In, in the world. I can listen to these podcasters who, um, are like, like Berman, who's like actually a scientist. I dunno. Have to listen to some just guy talking or whatever. Right. Yeah. So, you know, yeah. You know, it's really, really, uh, hard to navigate and to find someone to follow. I think ultimately, uh, the wisdom, uh, is there and people are revisiting in, in essence reconnecting with it and trying to communicate it for other people to latch onto, to learn from and to grow from.
Yeah. You have to feel like you're really growing as an individual, I think.
Yeah. But it's, uh, I think that's probably a universal thing around these very magnetic, but still slightly maniac people that, that, that there are. Some truths in there as well. Of course. So like, for example, uh, going to the gym, uh, like it's universally probably a great idea for anybody.
Uh, you know? Yeah. And, and there are probably like, yeah. Learning more is not bad. Uh, such like, so part of it is true, and that also makes it a little bit tricky. Uh, I, I remember my, again, coming back to my wife, I, I take a lot of inspiration from her. Uh, we were at a, um, we were at a trip this summer, and she's very particular in, in the kind of hotels that she wanted, uh, be in and so forth.
And, and one of the hotels clearly didn't meet her, her, um, expectations of what she wanted. Hmm. And she got kinda locked into that. She couldn't appreciate anything. Like even the, the perfect weather wasn't good because she was kind of locked into, this was not the experience that she was looking for. And then one of her friends.
Help towards. Can I see that? Yeah. But you can separate out, you're allowed to actually enjoy the breakfast. That's good. Even though you don't like the room and the lobby, so it doesn't have to be like either or. And we have a tendency to become very, like, binary in our thinking when it's like a lot of the line or there's high emotion or whatever.
And I think probably the same is true for, for like Andrew Tate, that they're like, you're allowed to say that some of the things are good, even though on like the aggregate, it can still be bad. Like both things can be true at the same time. If that makes sense.
Yeah. I mean, I think, um, let's say, uh, Andrew Tate, the line is pretty much skewed even though he says some good things.
And I, and I, and I, I agree with that. Um, it's better not to listen to someone like that, that has that message and that messaging, whereas someone that's a little bit more, um. Uh, so like that easily, more easily balanced might be harder, but then they still might actually be, you know, not great people too, right?
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. So Andrew takes a good example of like, please don't listen to him. And at the same time, there are other people who we probably, and we, although we could say for instance, like, uh, you know, take responsibility for your crap, right?
Mm-hmm.
Alright. Yeah, you're a hundred percent right about that.
You know, like, good, you know, but like, the message in the, in the image is different than in some, not something that we wanna accept really, but then there are other people who, um, are saying good things, but then they're doing bad stuff, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, you know, I, I don't like to, you know, I don't know, I don't like to make excuses for people.
I think if someone's like a crappy, shitty person, I don't care what they say, they're just repeating. They've heard anyway, you know, you know, that's
your boy's relationship to under type.
Now they're, they're free. They're free from Andrew Skate. Yeah.
Outta sec.
Yeah. But it took a while, you know, and then one of my, my older one, um, he left that stuff and then he started getting, like, wrapped into the church thing and all kinds of things.
Now the church fine, but there's a good example where it can be good or bad. But then the church guys were saying like, uh, you know, your parents are evil because they think that you should, uh, whatever. I mean, they just, he they wanna separate you. Right? Separate you. Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, in this, you know, evangelical thing.
And, and then, uh, eventually he came through that mainly because we all were like, we're gonna have to do an intervention, man,
dude.
And then eventually he, uh, you know, he pulled himself outta that and he found something that he wants to do and everything. But he was longing. That's
interesting with like, almost, uh, uh, don't call your son an addict here, but like, there, there's something with like searchers that can become quite a.
Similar to an addictive personality, you're looking for the next thing. It wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a period in his life where he is like all into sourdough bread or, or all into, uh, you know, training or whatever it is. Like you, you go all in and there's something, I think there's something beautiful to that type of mindset, but you're, you're so much more, um, you have probably to have some type of, of guardrails around you.
Like people that look out for like, yeah, this has now gone to, to an extent where it's probably not good for you anymore. Like it's, it's an obsessive personality type almost.
Definitely. I've got that too. So, and it's funny that you mentioned sourdough 'cause he and I both got on the sourdough thing like last year.
Such a random thing.
I even had a sourdough, which I called Carmi from Carmi, uh, based on the, the bear, right?
Okay. Yeah.
So I had a so sourdough thing for like months and he was the one that got started. He's like, you gotta do the sourdough. So we were doing the sourdough thing, like, uh, sort of together.
And, uh, we, we both stopped that now. But you're a hundred percent right. Uh, so always looking for that thing,
you know? Yeah. Can I ask you, maybe not super connected to the conversation that we just had, but one of the things that I've struggled the most with, I think in, in my own practice has been, uh, um, getting locked outta this subjective experience because I put so much pressure on this objective experience.
If that makes sense. So, so like I want to perform being present in my meditations and you at least I can get quite good at, at looking a lot on, on kind of the surface level symptoms of being present and completely forget the real subjective experience. How, how would you kind of guide someone like me through that?
I think when it comes to, let's say if it's specifically meditation. You know, we could keep our meditation score how many days in a row if you use like, views or something. You know, they have like levels, right? That you get feedback and I've done done all these things. So it's
less about the gamification.
'cause I actually don't use some type of tracking app for it. It's more like, uh, I, I want to get to that state of, of being present. And uh, like I have this visualization around like, when I'm the most grounded, I'm like the oak. And the oak doesn't need to tell anybody that it's an oak because it's so obviously an oak.
And I, I've had those kind of states where I've been for real and I know how they feel so I can kind of fake myself into that feeling and start masquerading, uh mm-hmm. Or performance, acting those behaviors rather than the feeling. And then that just ends up spiraling to, to downwards. Uh, but, but it's a pattern that I've noticed on my own practice a lot.
Mm-hmm.
Um. When, when we meditate, often we end up falling into routines. Just like anything else, we fall into these kind of thought routines or patterns. Um, and it can be, it can be interesting to, you know, to switch it up if we feel like we're just entering, entering into the same thing. So, um, one of the good things about, let's say a mantra, um, as opposed to something that we identify ourselves with is that, um, the word itself can almost be meaningless, but it gives our mind something to hold onto.
Mm-hmm.
It's good if it's maybe a message that we kind of like, but it doesn't happen. It's good if it's just like not as, uh, meaningful as, let's say an I am an oak and I'm gonna like spread my stuff out. And, um, because what happens is then we're, we're forcing a thought into a state where we ultimately want to be free from thought.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's nail on the head. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's, it's um, another practice which might be just something simple like the breath as opposed like a visualization, um, you know, to, to to, because it's just being in that state is the key. We also have an expectation a lot of times with meditation is that it's gonna do something.
Absolutely. Actually nothing. The whole whole thing is that there, it's this big, uh, we said in the beginning, this vast openness expansion consciousness that we are ultimately, uh, in our deepest core behind the thought and the emotion.
Yeah.
Um, we don't have to get stuck in the emotional body either. We can go deeper and deeper into this place where it's vast and open and the way there is through.
Right. So maybe we start in this kind of clutter mind, oh, I got empathy, I too much to do. And then we get into the mind, you know, um, oh, I'm gonna make a nice, uh. Plan. Right? The planning, kind of structured mind. Then we get into this kind of state where we start to think, oh, uh, you know, like, uh, I love my kids.
I'm grateful for my life, right? And then all of a sudden that might lead us into this feeling state. Um, maybe it's a feeling of nostalgia, of, uh, longing for openness, clarity. And we just keep going. We let ourselves be, let that be too. Don't get stuck on that. There's no need to. And then eventually we fall asleep.
Yeah. But, uh, but eventually, you know, maybe at one point it all just goes away and then you're like, and then it comes back, right? Yeah. So that process is, is the thing. And we don't have to have expectations of doing anything because the results will come in a different way. It's not like we're, we're doing this to get something, we're doing this to leave stuff.
You know, we're doing it to not have all that stuff. No. So, um. And then there are the, the additional benefits of just meditating because of our, uh, physiologic, physiologically it's good for us.
Yeah. Yeah.
Stress, um, working with our nervous system, uh, elongating the breath, those kind of basic things, they change our physiology and that change in physiology, even if we don't really feel it makes a change.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It's, it's difficult with these things that have a tendency to compound over multiple years.
Hmm.
Like, it's, it's very difficult at times to, to kind of stay motivated when you're, you're kind of off the wagon, if that makes sense. You get back on it. Um, final question, like the, the story of, of, uh, shaman and Hams and, and Rumi.
Did you identify more with any of those two characters?
I, I always, um, I'm probably more of a shams than, than a Rumi. I, I've never had like a, for any period of time, a, a, a long, um, uh, position, a stately position in that se, you know? Um, I've always been more, let's try that, let's do this a more impulsive Yeah. Even though maybe when people meet me, they seem, they, I maybe look or seem very structured or something, you know?
Um, but I'm very, let's say chaotic and, uh, and all that stuff too, mostly. So, uh, so probably more, more of a shams than a a, a Rumi
Yeah.
Uh, sense probably. Yeah.
Um, and how does that make you, is that something that you're, like, comfortable with or like, is there identity and, and perhaps an, an opinion about that?
Oh, that's a good question. I haven't thought about it like that. Um,
yeah, maybe part of it is that I want, you know, so a part of me wants to be, let's say, remembered for doing something great or anything, just like, you know, many of us, right? We feel like we've contributed, um, in some way and in, in, in a way, uh, in, in a strange sense. We don't know shams without Rumi, right?
He doesn't leave his, he doesn't leave his stamp on a body of work in the way that Rumi did with like 5,000 poems, whatever. And so in that sense, yeah, when you say that, I think, oh, you know. It would be nice to be this person who's left these 5,000 poems, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, at the same time, um, I, I have to like, let myself be the, and for this to play out the way it needs to play out.
And if I could be some chances to some other room, I'd be totally happy with that because I think I just wanna offer whatever I can
Yeah.
Um, in the work that I'm doing. Right. So I, yeah. Um, and if someone feels ignited by this kind of stuff or wants that kind of like deep work or whatever, then let's go, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's your relationship to, to like deci the desire to have impact, for example, because I remember this very viscerally from, from the shadow work that I did, that I realized while doing it, how much either negative or positive emotion. I put on different things. Like, to me, the desire to have impact, for example, would probably be something that I would perceive as, as kind of in, in the shadows of it, in the darkness.
It was something like egotistical something. But at least through my work, I started realized that there are no, like universal laws. It's more like you've been conditioned to think certain things and there's, there's a lot of light in what you perceive to be your darkness at times. Uh, I had a, a beautiful conversation with Stephen de Sousa, who, who wrote a book on shadow work.
He, he introduced me to the concept of the golden shadow. Uh, and I thought that was beautiful. So, so the idea here is he, first off, I, I think he had a really good. Definition of, of shadow. We have a tendency to put positive and negative on, on like these things. And he, he was more like, no, it's, it's not necessarily good or bad.
It's more like it's hidden in the darkness. You don't know about it, your shape. So, so you had a, a visualization that you're, you're born into this world in this beautiful castle with all these rooms lit up. And then slowly over time, as you're conditioned by your parents and society, you start to lock the rooms down.
And it can be small things that your, your father or your mother said that don't, don't, don't act a fool. Uh, we're at a party or whatever. And then you start closing down a room, so maybe I shouldn't take up space. Whereas in, in your core character, maybe you're, you're an excellent public speaker if you would just allow that, that, that kind of extroverted.
Um, and, and he said that oftentimes like your greatest gifts to give, uh, you, you've kind of hid in the shadow. You're a little bit of shame, ashamed of it. And for high performers specifically. You mentioned that one of the, the biggest shadows was you, you're kind of afraid of your potential, you're limiting yourself, uh, because you don't wanna, like, take up too much space because you, you've been told that that's a, that's a bad thing to do.
Um, what, what's your kind of reflections on on that?
It's, it's beautiful that you say that because I think, um, yeah. For me that's a hundred percent one of those things that I've struggled with, right? Um, you know, I wanna be a good person and in my mind somehow or somewhere deeper, like you say in the shadow side, I associate, uh, success with being, uh, let's say rich.
And then that richness is like your jerks, uh, like, you know, Trump, you know? Right. And so then I'm like, yeah. And, um, and that is something I definitely, uh, was forced to learn through my. Poor pair and all this kind of stuff, and it still hangs there. Um, and I, I, I see that in myself and I totally, I totally, uh, have done that.
And I feel like in many ways there's another book called The War of Art, um, uh, by Stephen Pressfield, and he talks about living a shadow life. Okay.
And what is that?
Yeah. And, um, and the shadow life is that basically you live something very adjacent to the life you wanna live. Yeah. So, for instance, for me being, um, let's say a, a writer and a creator, I've worked like in the TV business as a creative director servicing, you know, television companies and, and, um, and, and regular companies with creativity.
Instead of writing my own book
Yeah. Instead of being the creative. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. I've, I've been living a shadow career, like apparel thing, which gives you this good but not great.
Yeah.
And, and it's, and it's a fear of this, uh, success of standing out, of thinking like, you're so egotistical and all this kind of stuff.
Yeah. Um, and we have to somehow let that go. Um, but it's, it is hard, um, because we do hear those voices, especially with the people we're supposed to like, care about the most. That's the strength thing.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Whereas other people might just jump on, you know, and be like, this book is so important to me.
And you're like, oh, you're welcome. You know, like,
yeah.
Uh, whereas someone in your family, like you, you think you're so great. You're doing the talks about that and all this kinda stuff. Like, I'm just trying to offer what I can.
Yeah.
And it's taken me until now, which is like, feels like forever to finally say, no, I'm doing the thing that I need to do.
Right. And that's like, yeah. Huge shifts
liberating, right?
Yeah.
There's something around, at least again, just my subjective experience, but just giving yourself permission to want the things that you want.
Yeah.
That for me was probably the, the, the hardest one. Just saying, you know what, if this is what you want, own up to it.
Like, it's okay to want the things that you want. Like yeah, I felt that we're, we're so conditioned into a version of what you should want. Uh, so it takes a lot of time just to understand what do I actually want? And then giving your permission, yourself the permission to actually want those things. And on up to Yeah, for yourself.
You don't have to, to push that down anybody else's throat, but at least be honest towards yourself.
Exactly. Yeah. You, once you into that, then things also fall into place too, because you're aligned. You're more aligned.
Yeah.
You know, um, if I, you know, if I hadn't said, I'm gonna write this book, I don't care.
Right. I wouldn't be talking to you. You know, I wouldn't have had, you know, like a holy style saying, oh, we have to like, do, you know, show this to people, whatever. So it's just about that. It's about stepping towards the thing that you wanna do with whatever it takes and, and, and being aligned, you know? And if we do amazing, great things can happen.
Yeah. What would you name this chapter for yourself? Like the chapter that you are in, in the book of, of Gary's life. What, what is this chapter about?
Uh, sharing.
Sharing.
Yeah. Sharing. Yeah, sharing. Like when you asked about, oh, you know, what light can you shed or what things can you, uh, offer? And it's just like, for me, it's just like, you know, maybe through time.
And effort or whatever. I've accumulated all kinds of, you know, different stuff. And it's like letting that, letting that be, you know, and not feeling like I have to hold it back or, um, you know. Yeah. So I think it's about that for me right
now. That's beautiful. Yeah. And what's the next chapter after that?
Or is it too, too far in the future?
Yeah. Who knows? Who
knows? That's beautiful.
Yeah. How about you? Where are you?
I think so much has been around giving permission to, to, to live a life that's more aligned to, to what me and Hannah actually want. And, um, making that happen and, and trying something that feels way, way, way different. Betting on myself is, is a huge thing. Um, and it's been kind of building over the last two or three years.
Um, and there's. A lot of freedom, but also new found sense of responsibility around that one. Like there's nobody to blame and that's scary at times. Um, but also, like,
I don't know, I, I would capture it like, clearly. It, it feels like a luxury to be able to look at your life and say, we, we have the possibility now to do a, do absolutely anything we want.
Mm.
Like there are no rules. Uh, to what, how we wanna structure life. And it feels at times a little bit like a cheat code.
You know, like all of these things, like the emperor's new clothes of, of society's rules, like these aren't rules in that sense. It's more rules that have been conditioned to believe in, but there are plenty of people living way differently, and it seems that they're not in jail. So, yeah.
Um, and then, I mean, moving towards more sun, more presence, more calmness in, in the family. That's a big part of what this chapter is about. But, uh, yeah, given permission is probably the, the, like, what enables all of this.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I'm still in building mode. Like I'm not in, in, uh, like I'm, I'm set or, or anything like that.
I'm, I'm. Super engaged in building, like, and I'm really excited about it. And that's like super fun as well. Having like, I, I feel a lot of clarity on, on purpose for the first time in a couple years, and that, that feels awesome.
Yeah. It's so good when you feel like you're taking steps towards the thing that really are, you know, the things that really are important to you and that you're driving for that.
Yeah. It's an interesting shift. So, so me and me and Hannah, we've obviously, we've had a, a super intensive year. We've like sold two properties and moved out of them and then switched to everything. So like, there's been so much on the like, operational side that has felt like problems and issues, but since a year ago, roughly when we decided like, this is what we want to do mm-hmm.
We've been so aligned on, on like purpose and mission and I've always almost had the opposite. Like my day-to-day is like super structured and feels ordered and, uh, good. In words that we've, uh, used before, but I've, I've felt more confused on purpose. Uh, right. So, so it was interesting. I, I kind of lived a completely different life where there was no order, but purpose was clear.
And hopefully I'm moving in now towards like, okay, purpose and, and order are, are kind of aligning. That's at least the ambition. We'll see.
Yeah, I think you're doing it.
Yeah. It feels like it's, it is funny. We, we said that we should move down here for, try it out for six months and I think after two weeks we looked at each other and like, yeah, we live here now.
It feels great so far. We'll see. Where can you find the book, Gary? This has been great, but for those who are interested to, to pick it up
easiest on Amazon, just, um, you know, go to Amazon. Of course you can get it on my website too. And the audio book will be coming out shortly as well. So there'll be a, a, an audible version.
Awesome. Looking forward to it. It was beautifully written. I really enjoyed not just the content, but the style of it as well. So, so kudos for, for, for that being your, your first attempt at the, at the grownup book. I, I know you have plenty of kids book, uh, already released for that. It was beautiful.
Thank you so much.
It's always fun catching up with you, Gary. I'm looking forward to, I'm coming to Stockholm here soon. I'll, I'll, I'll hopefully be able to visit one of your breathwork classes as well.
Ah, that'd be great. Yeah. Come any, any Sunday as my guest. Of course.
Yeah, right there. Cheers, Gary.
Yep. See you later.
Awesome. It is really beautiful to speak to you. Always.
Yeah, it was super nice to talk to you too. This is
so, so man. Sometimes like when you get the questions back and like, I, I love when I get it, but it's like, whoa. There's something that I haven't really landed on there. I'm so used to like asking the questions, you know, which it's a luxury position.
No, but you, I mean, it feels like, you know, you're pulling things together and working hard to make sure that you have this kind of combination of, uh, you know, stability and success and all that kind of stuff, as well as the internal, you know, development and stuff like that. So it's really good.
Yeah. For me, the big thing right now is, as we talked about before, before cameras is permission to, um, also relax.
Yeah.
Super.
And restructure, and that sometimes it's restructuring, like you said, you know, work a little time.
Yeah.
You know? Yeah. So good.
Yeah. We had a long conversation yesterday, just me and Hannah. We actually took the day off and, and we just spent it, you know, walking the beach and, and talking about what truly matters, like what few things would have huge impact.
Mm. And really like when you're in the mode of, you're like, you're redesigning everything anyway.
Hmm.
Suddenly it feels like it's available. Its just a design question. Yeah.
We both so much enjoy when we get like long weekends, uh, just me and Hannah. Um, yeah. And all of a sudden we live in, uh, I said to Hannah, usually that is connected with such a high cost, like you have to spend 40,000 to, to go somewhere because we live in Stockholm. He's like, I could literally go to the village over there as long as I don't have the kids and spend the, the, the week with you at a hotel room and just eat the room service.
That would do it for me. It's like, it doesn't have to be as expensive as we've built it up previously, you know? 'cause the value for me is being alone with you. Right?
Yeah. So important to be able to say that. And, and the thing is, is the environment that you're in is the environment that you're in.
Yeah.
You know, you get, you do get affected by it, you know? Yeah. Often people talk about like, let's say the power of now and all this kind of stuff.
Yeah.
It's like, you know, how many pushups can you do? You know, it it, what happens to you at this moment? It's dependent on the things that you've done just before it, you know?
So it's like the environment that you're in is, is, uh, affects you a lot, you know, and if you keep being bombarded or you're very stressed with work or whatever it be, um, of course it builds up, you know, then you have to make shift to change that. And
Yeah.
And essence, if you've made those shifts, then another shift to say, okay, yeah, I'm gonna tend spend a weekend away, get a babysitter for three days or whatever.
Yeah,
yeah. You know?
Yeah. How, how, how's the, how was super in a, in a good way, jealous of, of your house that you got, how, how's that treating you now?
Oh yeah. It's so good. We love it here. I mean, we're like right in the park, like,
yeah, I know. Yeah.
So I mean, I look out now, I mean, before, you know, we living in the city near was nice, but then I wake up in the morning and look outside.
I'm like, holy fuck. I'm just in the middle of nature right now. The snow everywhere. It's like being, you know? Yeah, totally. Like,
yeah.
So it's just like so incredible.
Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. So
yeah,
it seems like such a rare thing to find in Stockholm. Like what, what you ended up landing.
I know, it's crazy.
Yeah. Yeah. It was because we aligned, so Shima had like a, a mood board and we were like moving into my apartment and we were like renovating it and all this kind of stuff. And then, uh, I've been running here, you know, through all the years and like thinking about these houses, like who lives in those houses, you know?
Yeah.
And then all of a sudden just happened to look in the midst of renovating, which was already like chaotic trying to fix my up. And I saw this and I was like. Look at this.
Yeah.
And when, then we went to a, a viewing and then, you know, it just happened. Right?
Yeah.
Strange. Yeah.
Yeah. It's the, it's the most beautiful park in Stockholm.
And, and calling back your home is, is beautiful.
That's crazy. So lucky.
Fantastic. Gary, I gotta start running to, to pick up the kids and stuff.
It was super nice to talk to you.
Yeah, likewise. Um, I'll release this probably pretty soon. I'll get it over to my editor. Lemme check. I think this is actually going to be, uh, it's gonna be actually Thursday the 29th.
It's actually next Thursday, if that's okay with you.
It's fine. Of course,
yeah. I'll get everything over to you in terms of uh, final edit and all the reels and stuff like that.
Oh, great. Yeah. I'm gonna, uh, I have to finish getting my, my new fixing my website, which I stalled on.
Yeah. Now you have a deadline
Thursday.
It's gotta be back up and running and all that.
Awesome, man. Take care.
Alright, see you later.
Cheers.
Cheers.
That was Gary Fabri on ThinkRoom — where exceptional minds think out loud.