Steven D’Souza & The Cost of Hiding: Unlock Authentic Leadership by Knowing Your Shadow

Uh, one is i intensely personal. So i grew up in the United Kingdom and, uh, as a really, a child of a strong Catholic family. And, uh, one would say, uh, being a Catholic is like a PhD in guilt and shame. Mm. But also. and uh, compassion and I've always wrestled with that Um, why do I do what I don't want to do And what, what is the disconnect between, uh, living, let's say a good and ethical life and always failing to live up to that measure. And, uh, Exploration for me ended up is training for the priesthood. So I had the opportunity to work with a wide variety people from in an Alzheimer's disease unit to a mental prison, to a school in the east end of Glasgow, Scotland.

And, uh, it really gave me a broader view of humanity rather than, let's say just working with your own culture within, uh, your own subgroup. It wasn't a vocation. I decided to, to continue. So i actually went to university and i was sponsored by the prison service. So whereas my friends had projects in the summer, internships in consulting companies and investment banks. I worked in a young offenders prison with uh, boys who were 15 years old and they'd been sentenced for 14 years for murder, robbery and rape.

And it was an interesting experience for me because where we tend to have you know, very clear or maybe fixed ideas about what's a good person and what's a bad person. And these clearly the the heinous crimes would be considered very negative obviously. Mm-hmm. But the young boys I found most were illiterate they didn't know how to read or write and most of them had no fathers Uh, they grew up without that kind of guidance or role modeling. The majority of them had children and they didn't even know how to do basic things like shave for example. Took away my, uh, let's say preconceived ideas around uh, what does it take to be a human being showed me the the power of context and the environment in, I would imagine

it starts shaping your mind to to looking into the systems a lot behind uh, rather than just placing blame on individuals

I would say there were very few from privileged uh, backgrounds in, in, in the prison service. So this was a part of the context. On the professional site. I've spent the last 30 years working as a, as a consultant, working with different organizations and also coaching uh, senior leaders. And I always became fascinated by the question, why do some people derail and why Successful in their role role and although we see you know, examples of derailment that's quite spectacular You know, uh, normally for example you saw a recent case with Ous, CEO at the cold play concert, uh, shown to have an affair or you see let's say at BP also losing their jobs because of behavioral, uh, prior you some some form of uh, mis revenge. but why is it that they do this but it's not just focusing on the senior leader as almost like the, the example that's not the common example Garner in their research showed that between 50 to 70% of leaders derail within the first 18 months so why is that?

What's the

Sometimes they're identified as stars because they perform well, but much of that star behavior came because of their relationship with their team, for example, that allowed them. And without the team as context they no longer perform because they don't have those networks in in place. But also because there are other psychological factors that I explore in the shadow book.

But I'll go into them in more detail just to, just to come, come back to the, the second reason was yes about the derailment but also around toxic cultures. You know why do some organizations and corporations fail? So we've seen uh, big examples of that for example in Boeing. Where 3 46 lives were lost. But we've also when most of us leave organizations because of toxic managers and leaders.

But also the environment that we experience is yeah, That's the primary

And in the article they argue that sort of living in a dark mode. Imagine your phone, mobile goes into dark mode. It's black. They argue that we were progressing. you know, We're making uh, progress on climate, on different agreements, maybe cooperation at less. But now we're moving to more polarization and we seem to be moving back backward on a lot of progress that we made in the, in the past uh, decade or so.

So in this dark mode we're seeing almost like a Visceral anxiety and potentially you know, more opportunity for destruction You know, I think there's something called the doomsday clock and there we're literally seconds now from total total destruction and I, I talk about in the book I begin with a a line from a composer, his name was Michael Tippett, and he died at the age of 93 in 1918, uh, 1998 and he wrote a libretto like a, an opera and it was the time in the world war ii, and it particularly in the aftermath of Kristallnacht, which was a night of violence uh, that started in like say Germany on the assassination of uh, uh, an a German soldier in Paris, ambassador actually. and in the, uh, line he talks about he said this, he said I would know my shadow and my light, so would I at last be whole. And what he was discovering is that he was very politically active. You know, he was a protest against the war. He was in Wormwood Scrubs prison in the UK because he didn't join the forces.

And he, said political activism isn't enough. We need to be able to face what is it within ourselves that we're projecting outwards? Why are we scapegoating others that causes conflict and causes the toxic cultures and the toxic society, uh, that we're living in. So it's not just the personal, it's also the organizational and it's also the societal.

So, uh, the, the short answer is, i wrote the book really Johan, to address all three elements, and i think they're interrelated rather than.

There there's a tendency of the human brain to, to want to find dichotomies where there aren't necessary dichotomies. And i think shadow work is interesting because it kind of forces a, a false sense of it dichotomy. Right. And, and back to your quote, uh, I would want to know, what was the quote? Both my light and dark side so I can finally

Mm. You know, There's a Barbara Ehrenreich uh, so she wrote, smile or die. Mm-hmm. You know, there's a whole and there's the huge cost, because her research showed the people who did that loose touch of their own emotional uh, emotions, and the capacities to feel, and uh, they result in burnout. For example, and other mental uh, health issues. So y yes, I wanted to maybe address you know, what is that balance there and we tend to over index on, on one side.

So I think with with useful methodologies like appreciative inquiry, positive psychology, they're extremely helpful But they, but if we over-index them and we take them only as our leadership style or our position then I think it can become unhealthy. When I look at the shadow, you know, it sounds an obtuse concept and uh, a cursory look on Google we'll bring up things like uh, inner child and almost like new age literature which isn't helpful really for leaders and particularly in thinking about the shadow.

So where the the main idea came from was mostly as a metaphor Or an archetype but it came from the psychologist uh, Carl Jung, Yeah. who described it almost like a repository of all of the feelings, emotions that were not safe to be expressed. Uh, Normally in early, early childhood or development stages, such as messages that were given to us by our parents, Childers by our teachers, but also by society.

So a, a metaphor that's often used is of we were born. Palace, you know, that we could, uh, child, you've got two. They don't, when they don't shut off their emotions, you know, they cry, they scream, they poop, they laugh. And imagine you're born in a, into a palace with many rooms, hundreds of rooms. And then over time, you, you, uh, you learn, we learned, you know, it wasn't safe to express this opinion.

We, we shouldn't cry. So we shut off, you know, maybe a room, and then we went. It's not, it's not okay to express anger. Should always be, you know, um, polite and, uh, differential, close another room. And over time those rooms become wings. Those wings become pa uh, larger clusters. And in the end we're left with like a, what used to be a palace with a hundred rooms.

We're left with two or three rooms, you know, our two bedroom, even like a studio. So there's lots of us that isn't. We're not consciously aware of, but that's still present. So his idea was the shadows is always present. It's not past. you know, William Faulkner, the American essayist, he said, The past is never dead. It's not even past. So there's this idea that it still influences us in the present.

So for example, we might be told, you know, you might say to a child, Don't be selfish. Share the toys with your brother or your sister. So we learn you know, it's not okay to protect what was ours. We need to share it. We need to give it away. We need to not be selfish. But that message can be internalized, normally as a transgression, As adults or as leaders, we might find that we find hard to say no. Maybe we don't have boundaries. Maybe we're too much into people pleasing. Maybe we avoid conflict, but there's a, there are repercussions of how we live our lives.

Now, in the psychological lens, in the book, I look through most of the common ones such as projection defenses and derailers, but, uh, as more the psychological side. But what i wanted to do was not only focus on psychology, which is one lens, but to take into account that were embodied beings where physiological, biological, absolutely. and the shadow also shows up there, you know, it shows up in, uh, I look at the work Robert Robert Sapolsky, who wrote Determined and uh, Behave, and as a neurobiologist, his research shows that, you know, our uh, hormones, our DNA, our cultural heritage, all uh, levels of sleep uh, can all impact on our behavior and uh, and in, in, uh, almost lead to toxic behavior and toxic outcomes.

So when we're looking at the shadow, we can't separate our mind from our biology, we need to to look at both what is happening in our physiology, and that might encourage toxic behavior. And just shortly, the last two lenses, maybe we can explore them further in our conversation Looking at the systemic lens.

So rather than just focusing on the idea of the individual or the leader, and often the, the scapegoating of the bad leader, you know, the bad Apple, we just need to change the bad leader and everything will be okay. We need to see shadow in, in a, there's a collective shadow. So if we think simply of the shadow is the me that I don't see, there's a collective shadow, which is the we. That we don't see. And this is the culture of an organization And how might processes be creating outcomes that are negative or toxic for an organization. And the last lens was the spiritual lens or the lens of meaning.

So often uh, shadows occur and can seem like we're in the dark. Using the dark as a metaphor can be quite painful. Periods of uh, let's say where we find ourselves in self-sabotage. Where we find ourselves in addiction. or we find ourselves doing behaviors that uh, we are not, we're not making progress. And we, we feel a sense of what's happening in my life.

Things are falling apart. But darkness and uh, almost dissatisfaction can also be a space of transformation. So I use the metaphor Night and day, both are equal. Yet we tend to, oh, you know, if someone's in the dark, they, they're in the not knowing it's negative. You should be, you know, somebody in the light. But actually all transformation all growth happens in the dark. Think about the seeding earth. Yeah, it's

Like almost, i i start to wonder if this is an intensely western pheno, uh, phenomenon, uh, from the enlightenment period where, where we, we. To serve the light in a sense, but in, in other cultures, you have the Jin and the Jan and, and they are intensely intertwined. Right. Do you find that as well, you, you've traveled all over the world.

Is, is this more a prevalent way of thinking in the West?

So every culture has a, but I think to your point in, uh, Taoist, uh, philosophy, you know, both there isn't this Aristotlean and split between good and bad and flesh and matter. Uh, Both are seen as uh, intrinsically valuable and uh, there's a more wholeism rather than uh, fractured or separate thinking.

So I think there is something and for sure that culture shapes and religion and belief shape our attitude to shadows. But equally in the western tradition there's a a lot of mystic, like my Eckhart and John of the Cross that talk about the dark knight of the soul that do see shadow as something productive and of value.

I just think that we need to reclaim that as leaders and to acknowledge that. And that comes into questions of meaning. Questions of purpose, and they particularly arise at midlife, you know, between the ages of 45 and 55. We tend to come with questions such as a sense of restlessness, maybe a sense of regret, where we've made choices early in our career, let's say for prestige or for security, but that might have denied some things that we felt we were not able to fully express in the present and that we're missing.

So, you, know, this idea of that lens uh, is also critical in understanding the shadow, not just through their biology or through systemic or psychology.

common one is uh, narcissism. And entitlement. i i I, I think I read some, uh, research that showed, you know, levels of narcissism are, you know, are multiple times higher. And also in terms of psychopathy. Now that's debatable. You know, I've had conversations that, you know, that there's no really accurate way of measuring it.

People who are psychopaths don't take claims, you know, but so, and often it was almost like, uh, in the aftermath, the global financial crisis leaders were blamed rather than seeing systemic, uh, issues that gave rise to crisis. But I do think that, uh, as we. se more senior in organizations like many of the listeners here on the, on the, on the podcast, we do grow in power and that can uh, lead to a sense of entitlement where there is a correlation between power and entitlement and also a lack of feedback really. So people are less able to

So I think you know, that one of the blind spots is certainly this idea of entitlement and certainly this idea of narcissism that can be fed, by that. So it's always a paradox. you know, uh, The paradox is that those who are almost suited to power don't seek it and those who de seek it and then quickly derail. So it's how do we understand you know, our own attitudes to power uh, and also you know, how is it mixed with some of the other other elements that we talk about that lead to toxic behavior?

What are those systems?

So, you know, part of it's improving our processes, uh, systemically. How we select how we develop and who we, who we put in positions of power. Second is, uh, accountability. You know, often those in, uh, positions where they're bringing value to the organization, even if they might have, uh, ethical drift, let's say they're making bad decisions, doing things, uh, wrong. they're not held accountable because...

yeah, That's one of the

difficult things to deal with as a company almost when you have that kind of star performer from an individual individualistic perspective but that doesn't create the culture around him or her that fundamentally scales for the company. And it's very, very difficult because you, you're kind of forced into this short-term, long-term game.

Uh, it's, uh, Maybe you can't really afford if it's your star salesperson for example and that person actually brings in 70% of the company revenue if you're a small company. Do we, Can we afford to to let him or her go? or, or, uh, like It's a difficult question for companies.

for

Yeah,

she talked how her, her line manager you know, made sexually inappropriate comments or uh, messages to her. And when she raised it, uh, human resources offered her the opportunity to move. Uh, Rather than a adjusting behaviour. And I think that was, you know, obviously that grew up in, into a huge movement. And it each, uh, what was important was it wasn't one isolated individual.

It was across the organization. But you are right. Uh, those, He was a producer and those in power were not uh, held accountable. And I think that is probably one of the crisis of leadership now. And how do we hold accountability? And what do we really stand for? So I gave you a specific example. I was coaching a senior leader in in the city of London.

Uh, A huge producer bringing in millions for the organization. But he would have a ferocious temper. That, uh, he would dress down publicly, junior members of the team. So as those junior

So that was an organizational dilemma. What do you do there? So what did they, they discovered is many of those, uh, people were leaving the junior talents. They weren't staying, people didn't wanna work with him, and in the end, it wasn't just, uh, it wasn't an issue that they could, uh, continue. So I i worked with him over a period of several, several months.

And it wasn't just anger management, for example. He had done anger management courses in the past, ironically. But these quick fixes and tools, uh, weren't able to help help him. So one of the activities i did with him, uh, Johan this, we drew a, a lifeline of his ups and downs from childhood to present.

And what was interesting, he described his most, uh, conflictual workplace. A hundred times better than his family environment. So he said in my, his family environment, the country he came from, uh, his, the shouting was so intense that, you know, it, it made like the, the most, uh, terrible workplace seem like heaven.

And it wasn't an accident that, you know, the way that he. He orientated himself around groups and around individuals from what was imprinted in him and his relationship to anger. 'cause anger is, you know, something that we're already taught about. Nobody goes to a 1 0 1 class in anger as a senior executive or even in any stage of our career. It's almost like, you know, what is our relat tank? Is it fused? Is it part of identity? Is it foreign? for, We don't even acknowledge it. What's that? I don't Is it, you know. So it's an interesting uh, so for him and and, uh, the work we did was exploring what is his relationship in, how can he develop a healthier way. And uh, it involved depth work, but often organizations don't uh, do that. They either, you know, uh, ignore or uh, they punish.

I let go. let go. So I think part of, you know, part of being a good leader, to your point, it's not about fully revealing or, or your um, hidden aspects. That's not what authenticity is either. It's not Um, but what it's, It's being aware of it and being able then not to be acting out unconsciously on other people or derailing your own career.

Leading much more consciously, much more wisely and and appropriately. So that's, uh, that's the, the, the, I'd say, one of the, another key thing. Most organizations do not provide any support. Yeah. How do you think

this from an organizational perspective? Because doing shadow work is, is I would imagine, a You have to go quite deep. Uh, It's not something that you can do in a you know, one hour webinar.

Um, It takes time, it takes courage. Yeah. But it's also difficult as a consequence to to say we as an organization force all our leaders to go that deep, right? How, How do you think about this kind of tension that it's an individual responsibility but we, we deal with the results as an organization?

So you know that is very real. In uh, the Boeing example where they had the uh, uh, a max disasters was that the cost was the loss of 3 46 lives because senior leadership weren't able to acknowledge their part in driving the culture that emphasized speed. And cost, over safety and quality And so, and so doing scapegoated, uh, blamed first they blame the past, then they blame the engineers, then you know but, and they ignored or they persecuted the whistleblower so it's often, you know the cost is huge to getting it wrong the personal cost is huge Uh, look at the, the famous examples of CEOs and senior leaders that have lost their jobs and uh, left their organizations in some sense of shame damaging what would've been a healthy legacy, but the, the cost to you know, the culture, if you work for a toxic uh, manager as you've rightly said, you're far less likely to, to stay but you, if you do, more likely to be disengaged, uh, maybe quiet quitting, not performing so the cost to economy is in billions, so you know how do we acknowledge that now it's not easy, you know, I think the. I think it's a, a wrong move to uh, almost uh, have working life, you know, co-opt your personal life And, uh, and there there are boundaries, you know, already work has taken over much of our personal lives So, and in their fact that many of us work from home and we have uh, hybrid relationships to work but I, I also think that it's probably an organization's duty to provide some support for those who wanna do this exploration because it can help them become a better leader as, so, as a development rather than a performance uh, tool and I think there are, it's not just individuals, Now Professor two professors and they wrote a book called The Dark Pattern that looks at now what are the systemic uh, issues that cause derailment and toxic organizations corporate failure and they identified nine such type patterns and these were from vague goals that encourage rule bending

uh, think like hyper

competition so for example in in Uber and not saying therapist, you know, very other famous uh, uh, company that resulted in thousands of false medical tests being given they were told you know, you can't c cooperate you can't collaborate, you need to compete this encouraged almost like a, a behavior that was uh, toxic and led to destructive uh, patterns the third one is incentives You know, If you reward people with incentives that uh, cause them to behave badly and do things that are unethical, that's also another thing.

So you, an example of that is in Wells Fargo. you know, They wanted each uh, sales uh, rep to open at least eight accounts for part, uh, for each of the clients. And so they were opening accounts without even the client's knowledge and closing them so they could meet their targets. And uh, so it's um, you know, incentives to drive uh, this barrier. So there are many, many ways organizations can address the shadow.

But why would say look at the four lenses. Don't just look at system systems. You must look at the individual. We have to look, you know, is it a biological reason? What Are you lionizing you know, what, uh, long working hours? Are you helping people develop a capacity? their productivity, and then how are you engaging in meaning. So I think taking that, uh, broader for lenses I think is helpful.

But you're right, I also am cautious about, you know, over, over managing, uh, on the, on their personal lives, but also not disappearing either because we're, we're bringing ourselves to work. To work and ignoring that doesn't mean the impact goes away, it just means that it happens can sort of unconsciously

Um, do you mind sharing some of, of, because I would imagine that you've done some pretty, uh, intense shadow work yourself. Can you share some of the kinda shadows that you've found? And then how have you worked on, on integrating them, uh, into your both professional life, your personal life?

So for me, I felt, no, what's going on here? i became curious. So the first part of shadow being very practical, and it's bringing curiosity where you sit, you feel a sense of defensiveness or sense of hurt and, and inquiry. What could this be?

Yes.

Why is this bringing up so much friction in me? So for me it was, uh, you know, why am I reacting to a colleague in, in this way? Uh, A sense of jealousy, a sense of competition. And I'm the eldest of three. And I have a brother who's one year younger than me. And in my relationship my brother, my parent told me I was always competitive.

You know, I felt he had displaced me or replaced me. Mm. And so I had to be the high achiever. I had to be the one who would almost win the affection and attention. And that had to a consequence. You had a consequence. How do I relate to my brother? and my caring? or competitive? Now, it might sound silly, but that also carried over to my adult life.

How am I collaborating or how am I competing? So When I became more cognizant of this, I was less likely to you know, push away my colleague and you know, focus on my own achievements. But recognize, ah, there's something here. It's allowing me, often It's allowing me to not act out familiar, which is like rooted in their familial family pattern, but giving me more choice at least and uh, enabling me to you know, develop a healthier relationship with both the manager and my colleague.

That's a, a simple example. Another practical way that leaders can do this is to do assessments that not just focus on, you know, we talked about the bright side skills, they're positive one, but al almost the dark side as well. So there's a a very good psychometric tool called Hogan, which looks at the dark side.

And essentially this is based on the premise that often our shadow behavior is by strengths that over, that are under pressure become derailers, so for example and uh, my strength might be that I am, uh, decisive You know, I make decisions very quickly but under pressure that decisiveness that's so healthy could become impulsiveness and I'm not really thinking through and uh, it could lead into bad consequences And, uh, I might have a strength of attention to detail but under pressure that might become micromanagement or it might be Paralysis, you know, I don't want to make the wrong decision so each of our strengths in a way under pressure is when the shadow most uh, comes up not when things are going fine, but when you know, we are feeling a sense of and most organizations and most leaders are listening to this, probably spend a lot of their time you know, under, under pressure, so that's when you know, we need to be cognizant and uh, Hogan is a great tool uh, for doing that, the other tool is you know, recognizing when you are projecting, like I mentioned the projection of on of my brother and my colleague, but recognizing that, what are you projecting onto others So the common example is uh, projections that are placed onto leaders.

You know, We almost have this idea that the leader or the manager must always be the hero, you know, must save the organization, must always have clarity, direction, order, uh, We put too many expectations onto leaders and we're always disappointed because no, no person can live up to those consequences. And This comes from you know, this ability to recognize that you know, there'll always be a mixture, There'll always be this sense of complexity and nuance in in every leader.

It's not all good or all bad. There's, you know, How can we recognize the gray? And that's not just in seeing what we project onto leaders but also what, uh, as leaders, we internalize or we project onto others. So researcher insat by uh, John Pierro Petriglere and Mark Stein, uh, it was called The Unwanted Self and it shows that leaders who can't tolerate qualities in them that they don't want, they project onto com competition, for example, or other leaders.

So it's recognizing what are our, uh, people projecting onto us but equally as leaders, what are we projecting onto others We'll give back some of those projections by owning some of these qualities in ourselves. So if we're always told, for example, we should know, how might we have the courage to say, no, I I'm, I dunno this, but this is what I think we should do as we go forward.

Or revealing more of our, more of our ourselves that break some of these uh, conceptions or assumptions that are thrown on us. The way metaphor I like to think of it's a Santa Claus. You know, You don't tell your 6-year-old that Santa doesn't exist. Over time, you know, you might drop more clues. Mm-hmm. And when they're 10 or they're 11, they know you know, you are, you're set. But you let people understand in a rate that they can take what your own capabilities are. what you, And so you're not... You know disappointing and uh, leaving people floundering but you're not at the same time uh, leaving people in magical thinking so which can be equally as destructive so uh, being able to, there's an interesting

progression as well going from so initially shadows I would imagine for most people are pretty unknown they're just ingrained in us from from childhoods. you have that story as you told don't take up so much space you become uh, self diminishing or, or whatever as a grown up the first step I I would imagine is realizing that I, I have this shadow and then you can come to that realization in many ways but I would imagine that most people see it as a almost a character flaw as you move along here I I would imagine that and I would want to discuss concepts of Shame, taboo, but almost desires as well that it's not as one dimensional the shadows as just being the ugly parts of me.

It might be the things that I'm really attracted to but I'm trained that they they're ugly, right?

Yes.

Now They were formed because transgression where you know, we felt shame and it was not safe to feel that or express that. So you know, we we, uh, we form the shadow 'cause shame and we heal the shadow through relationship or developing uh, an understanding of that it's safe to feel this or it's safe to express this or at least become aware of it so that we, we don't have to act it out.

But uh, Jung also had this idea of the golden shadow, meaning that it's not just you know, the negative that is in our shadow. If we just take the shadow to be hidden, uh, equally our gifts could be hidden. So for example, let's imagine that you were quite exuberant as a child but you were told, uh, calm down. You know, Don't be a show off that sense of uh, exuberance might be shut down Now you might find yourself in not being able to speak in public uh, keeping quiet when you have something valuable to say, so equally our gifts can also be in the shadow, I gave the example of midlife earlier with the, the spiritual, but uh, messages from society can put gifts in, in shadow.

Uh, absolutely.

so cultural, right? Your parents might have hated entrepreneurs for whatever reason, right? So they start talking to you that entrepreneurs is a risky choice. You shouldn't, You you should go for stable employment.

And I remember 13, I needed to decide what will I study at GCE? And I was told art isn't a real subject. You know, you should do science. Geography. And I remember my art teacher being so upset, you know. that I didn't follow this. And I too, and as an old elder come, okay, I'm rediscovering my love of art, you know, midlife.

right?

But it was a gift I had, I enjoyed that, enriched my life and taught me much. I have the same

And, and now it's, it's, uh, on a path to, to liberation of, of movement. And there's so many feelings of awe and wonder and being embodied with myself and being in, in, in the present moment that come. Of the, kind of on the backside of allowing this, so I think just realizing that so much of of what you perceive to be shadows aren't some, some universal laws of nature That, that it's, but but you think that they are, because it's so much taboo, so you don't even have a, a conscious relationship perhaps to it and it's so scary to, to even lift up that box in your personal mind, so as you just prefer keeping it tucked away, hidden away right?

It was a bit of a punch back that, um, the curriculums changed and the emphasis was on testing rather than on learning, but. There's something in the longing you know, about the Yeah. the the desire to teach.

and, In the UK you have a scheme and it's gone global. It's called Teach First which was for graduates uh, who would do a years' teaching and then go into the corporate life. But Lucy Kellaway Financial Time, she started something called Now Teach which is uh, aimed at experienced professionals you know, have decades working.

And Then they they transition to teaching and sharing what they do in uh, in, in schools teaching maths or business. I'm trying to say it's not about trying to go back in time, but it's about looking at what is the, maybe the longings or the desires that have been with us over a period of time.

Almost rediscovering and how do we integrate them, how might we bring that into our life And now. So the simple example of dance that you gave or art I gave, teaching might be, for me it's not teaching in a school, but it might be teaching as I'm sharing with you or writing a book or speaking about a topic I'm interested in.

So there's ways that we discover our vital energy, but a a big part of the shadow is it's not negative. You know, There's this concept of the wounded healer And uh, this idea that from what maybe was a, a point of shame or a point of woundedness in us can actually our, our greatest gift and can enable us to, to be more successful.

being able to lead from our wounds is unhelpful because we're still triggered but we, we lead from our scars.

So we've done the healing work. you know, We've acknowledged this, this was something that happened in my life and we all have that. you know, We all have the troughs as well as the high peaks. But being able to to not see that as negative but in what way did that shape me and in what way did that shape my leadership could also be helpful rather than keeping it hidden or suppressed.

Repressed and using it as, as a force of, of, uh, good. So that's, uh, that's another way that, uh, the Shadow can manifest and we can be in touch with our desire. And, uh, which the

That's why i i um, thought of the question. Uh, I think there's something that most of us don't acknowledge in, in just our, our kind of core drives and, and how that might impact energy at work and, and mission vision.

Yeah.

We don't really have a conscious relationship to it. And I thought two of your lenses was the biological one, which I think on the one hand is getting a little bit more attention nowadays with understanding that high performance comes, uh.

Best with a good sleep and a good physical, uh, body. I don't think that we're quite as aware of, of stuff. Other stuff that you're talking about as hormonal cycles, both for men and and female, uh, I thought the spiritual lens and the idea of of purpose, uh, was really interesting as well. Or were those more difficult to, to kind of fit in?

It's private, privatized. and, you know, Apart from, let's say an hour in our teenage years in sex educational, what, whatever it's called, personal social education now, at schools we're not taught uh, how to deal with our sexual feelings, uh, energy, how that might be correlated or how that might express itself in the workforce. Beyond a basic, let's say, ethics and compliance training that's online for most organization. it's almost like we're thought to be just minds at work.

So uh, a lot of the derailment happens around sexuality. and that's not seeing ourselves as physical embodied uh, beings. You know, One of the interesting people I interviewed for the book was a guy called Adam Taffler, who works with uh, this idea of the wheel of consent, being able to You know, what are our gestures, recognizing that we're sexual beings, How, what are, how do we give permission, how do we take, how do we receive, and doing that in a, in a conscious way.

But uh, for sure I think this is a huge black hole in organizations and we're scared to go there. But the consequences of of, of that fear are that we have environments where, you know, women are treated badly at work, where they do are the subject to a abuse, whether it's explicit or uh, task. So I think, uh, I think this is a big area and I think uh, issues around sex, issues around power, issues around money, they're not really uh, ambition.

We're not anger. We're not really, We're not really educated on them in organization.

They're not, they're not acting consciously. They're almost, uh, throwing and acting unconsciously that becomes dangerous. So I think developing an awareness, developing a knowledge, developing familiarity can lead to more skillful means. but all of these things are also correlated, you know, so they're big me too movements and Harvey Weinstein. he was famous for not just his, uh, his, uh, the sexual misconduct, but so if his, uh, furious anger.

So some of things can, and obviously power and abuse of power. So I wouldn't see these as separate, uh, dynamics. i would see them as also interconnected. And how, how might they be playing out in, in, in organization that don't forget it's how did the organization allow him, uh, to, to, to excuse his behavior, sign NDAs, prevent people speaking out, attack whistleblowers, et cetera.

That encouraged that. So again, we can look at our own relationship and we need to look at the organizations. Toler. Yeah. to your

Of course it will impact your, and or as somebody who, who is deeply angry and has no relationship to anger gives him or her zero ability to deal with that anger and, and the idea of thinking that at work we're just logical and rational beings that can completely ignore all of the other facets of life There's so much around like having clarity on your vision, and mission and purpose that comes from cultivating a, a relationship to your own strength or whatever of the shadows it might be.

That's for, for me, is one of the, the kind of personal examples of, of the shadow work that I've done. I've been really taught that that power corrupt, there are. Physical strength is, is something dangerous that should be masked. And and the consequence of that is just that I, I, I walked around in my life not having a really relationship to it, and that's even more dangerous.

'cause then i don't have a, for example, a a, uh, productive outlet for strength, for example. Whereas today I do a, a meditation form that's called the Dynamic Meditation. which is if, if you haven't done it and, and you walk into the room for the first time, you, you think there, there's, there's a, it's like the, the loony lunar room.

People are screaming and, and throwing pillows and whatnot. But it's such a fantastic way to cultivate a, uh, conscious relationship to your strength. i always get this kind of gorilla energy at the end of the meditation and outta it, I walk so much more calmer. Yeah. That's the consequence. And it's so interesting.

Often we can't, uh, sadness isn't, doesn't have any place in organizations, you know, we come, yeah. To your point around toxic positivity, where we're, we're performing. If, if someone asks us how we are, I'm fine. But, you know, expressing and being able to feel sadness to cry to belly. And then after you've expressed sadness, let's say totally for five minutes, then you notice the body goes into laughter.

Joy, and it might be, you know, that, and then you might be dancing in a sexual way, you know, in sexual sexuality doesn't mean sex, That's not, uh, confused that it's an energy, uh, that you can feel it and feel sensual and you can allow yourself to feel that energy, you know, and then you might be anger as you said, and then it might be love, and then it might be at the end when you've gone through all the phases. i think there are 12 in this particular meditation. i I've done, uh, used to do many times. At the end, your mind is still, and you can, you can present, because you're not holding on. Now for listeners of the, of the podcast, this isn't something, you know, most of us do, obviously in, in our Everyday, but what it is attending to is, you know, how far do we allow ourselves to experience the whole range or what it is to be human, at least to be safe.

Experience that in the right context. And that allows us, uh, dev in developing our familiarity with our own anger, with our own playfulness, with our own. You know, i think i show the creator of their, of their meditation dynamic one, you so, and said, unless you go, unless you can be, uh, mad consciously, you'll become mad.

Unconsciously, it would, similar to Jung, he said, you make the unconscious conscious, we'll call it fate, and it'll direct your life. So being able to develop a healthier relationship with it, with a range of emotions, uh, makes us much more effective. Uh, Saint Iac, uh, he's his famous face was this, the glory of God is a person, man, fully alive.

And that full, full sense of aliveness, i think is probably something we need as leaders, senior leaders, but something that can continue not just to our world in the work at work, but throughout, uh, our different aspects of our life.

And, and you feel that, no, that, that's not the life that i want. But you don't really see like, what, what's the carrot, what's the reward for doing it? And it's almost impossible to, to, with words the feeling of living more fully. But that's such a big reward. Uh, I've been on this journey for, for three years, and, uh, as with anything that, that's kind of big and takes time, it was good that I didn't know how big a, a work it would be when I started out, but I could never imagine not doing it.

And it's not something at all that I've ever felt during this period of time that I, i regret starting this journey. And just having the ability to over time live more and more presently and fully alive in, in the world that i inhabit is such a gift for me at least. So Yeah, working with shadows is, is just one part of it, but it's such a, a rewarding pursuit, let's say.

now. Now we, yeah. And I also

Leadership, maybe, you know, hollow, you know, uh, brand, brand me leadership. So in a way, you know, this is a core. To deeper work deeper and uh, to rediscovering okay, how given this is the conditions we're in how do we lead from from that place rather than ignoring it so part of my work was uh, this concept of leading from the dark and the idea of uh, not ignoring, as you said the times we're living in and the, and the pressures and the forces but how do we use that almost like a container to, to lead from and to, to, to take as a productive almost con, uh, almost like crucible for, for transformation

simple example is our relationship to the unknown you know, and you know, darkness is often a metaphor for the unknown, and Often we con conflate, uh, the unknown with uncertainty.

So we can read hundreds of books about leading from uncertainty, but uncertainty is only one feeling in response to the unknown. So think about children at their birthdays or Christmas or E or Ali. There's a gift that's wrapped. They dunno what's in it. Uh, the child doesn't feel uncertain. They may feel curious, they may feel full of wonder, possibility, excitement.

So the question I have then is, you know, how do we, uh, turn un this space of the unknown, not as a space of or place of uncertainty, but as a space of opportunity. And there, uh, what I discovered was that there, there's, it's not about adding more tools to the leader's toolkit, but there's a phrase that came from a poet called John Keats and the phrase was negative capability.

And, uh, he used to in his, in a letter to his brothers George and Thomas in 1817 and he described negative capability as The ability to be with mystery, uncertainty and doubt without irritable reach. To fact and reason He was comparing Shakespeare and Coleridge. Coleridge was you know, rational Paid by the numbers, Shakespeare was more wild Organic in the moment Humorous And much of our challenges Today you know, require us To be with mystery Because we dunno know The world is more incomprehensible More information doesn't make it more comprehensible We, We then need to interpret it The world is much more anxious So our ability to be with These, uh, let's say Unknown or darker is, Is a capacity that I think We need as leaders So that's, uh, simple. What a more

Yeah. Second is one

example Is like practices For example, uh, pausing it's a very uh, common thing now to continue and uh, not to take a a pause or to see a pause as a break, uh, but not necessarily in, in a positive way. You know, we're gonna pause now and then we're gonna, But pausing is is extremely effective. I'll give you a simple example.

Imagine a very competitive game of basketball. Teams aren't doing well, but there is no breakthrough. A coach can call a timeout. It can be one one minute and yet it can change the whole direction of play. And often when we're in uh, meetings, you know, there's a phrase called the frenzied manager. We can always be relentless and busy and we're rewarded Uh, for business is a badge of honor.

But being able to frequently pause is a negative capability that allows us to be more effective. And by negative I don't mean something negative is in our popular understanding of negative. No, absolute. Yeah. Hidden or under un, under not. privileged, underutilized. Mm-hmm. So, you know, it's like focusing on the words or the speaker rather than the listener. You know, i I love that. I have a friend who's a conductor and he wrote a book called The Ignorant Maestro, His name is Itay Talgam, and he and his talk is called Key Note Listening because it said it's the Listening. of the audience that makes a performance, not, uh, not necessarily the orchestra. So it's, it's interesting, the next capabilities of things like silence. There are things like not doing, there are things like solitude, there things like pausing, there things like surrender.

Things that we don't normally associate as having value in the business world. Um, what I did in, with my co-author Diana we looked at negative capabilities for uh, doing, negative capabilities for being, negative capabilities for knowing. Because in leadership we tend to privilege uh, one aspect and ignore or under-utilize the other.

That leaves us a bit of balance. You know, We privilege knowledge rather than curiosity. We privilege activity rather than the stillness that activity can proceed from. Or we uh, privilege, let's say, narrow definitions of success rather than our interconnectedness and reliance with each other or the the widened actual world.

So. Now What I wanted to do in in the shadow book is really a culmination of that, is recognizing the impact of you know, what we tend to focus on only on what's seen and what we, and what is the impact of what we're not aware of individually and collectively to make us better leaders and to help us build and lead better organizations.

wonder how much of this will change as a consequence of meditation becoming more and more mainstream as a tool for high performance. So one of the things in in pausing silence, if if you're the busy manager, let's say, one of the things that that you lose is clarity a lot because you don't for yourself or for your team, allow the, these moments of, of reflection, taking a little bit of a step back from the operational whirlwind, um. But as more and more managers are, are kind of um, uh, discovering meditation i wonder if this, we we're seeing the beginning of, of a trend in another direction. What do you think? Yeah. Do you see the same, uh, that it's increasing, uh, these types of practices?

Or am i living in a, a small bubble here?

the last 10 years and you know, lots of good. It does awareness, but then there's also criticism of this movement. It's almost wrote a book, Mac mindfulness. Where, you know, it's almost become like the commodification and the co co-opted ness of, uh, meditation, mindfulness by corporations.

We can help people reduce their stress, but let's not reduce their working hours. You know, let's not change any systemic

There are many good, great thinkers and leaders who don't meditate. You know, I think of great things like Adam Grant He says, you know, it's not for him, but people find their way in different activities. Your way might be through dance. Another person's is through walking or hiking. Uh, my friend does it through bodybuilding, let's say.

But when he's doing that, he doesn't necessarily listen to music, but he's really aware about what he's doing, allows him to connect to the person and he's in the activity in itself. So I think rather than, uh, labeling, you know, there's a tendency to label some activities is spiritual, some is not spiritual, some is meditation.

Some it's not. I think it's more the quality of awareness. No matter what your team Yeah, exactly.

So if you give the example of, of walking as Meditation I wouldn't say that just walking my kids to school and then hurrying to, to my job is meditative at all Uh, but being out in the woods without, uh, something in my ears can be very meditative. if I just take myself as an example, before I had any type of meditative practice, my only form of meditation was really.

Can i distract myself so much so that the, the, the thoughts are quiet. So that for me meant like playing video games while watching a, a movie, uh, for example, because I was so engaged, right? So, so that was the only kind of relaxation for my mind. And then you grow a little bit more, comfortable over time with your thoughts in the more quiet meditations.

Um, so I, I think my only message as, as we kind of discuss anything can be meditation. It's also very easy to, to give yourself permission to just be distracted. And that to me is, is doesn't, it doesn't serve the message in a sense.

That we, we quickly stop because we, we feel that we aren't doing it right. You know? So in a way it's not what you're doing, uh, but how you're doing. So there's a famous, uh, phrase, you know, Before enlightenment I Chop word carry water. After enlighten chop wood, carry water. And the, The meaning is, you know, it's not in. activity in itself that's in you know, you, you spirit while doing activity but what I would say is take the pressure off as listeners to find, know, to, to do things in a particular way, find activities that you feel a sense of flow, sense of engagement A sense of awareness, a sense of joy And uh, think about how do you, you know, What does that bring you And how can you build more of that Into your day Mm. And No matter how small you know, One of the things I I did with pausing you know, I, I remember saying to uh, My coach or therapist At the time I was exhausted And I was burned out And uh, he said why don't you take a vacation I said I don't have time to take a vacation He said I don't mean Take one in the future, I mean now I said what?

He said why don't you take a 30 second vacation And he got me to put down what I was holding Put my hands behind my head Lean back in the chair Put my feet out, even on the desk And take a rest for 30 seconds And I tell you And I invite listeners to try this But equally, just with 30 seconds, I felt refreshed I felt a bit renewed And even though it was such a small uh, moment of time So you know what I say is meditation Isn't something separate Like uh, that you have to Necessarily put time It can be something that you can integrate and use in your, In your day

that's ing when, When you're in that kind of mindset of, Of I have to get this done And then there's time pressures and so forth To just Sit down in a chair without nothing For for three minutes It's almost like deeply like ah, thi This feels wrong Uh, Because I, I completely shared the, the same experience of, Of the impact that that can have and getting clarity on, On what I need to do in order to complete The task that is stressing me out So so the three minutes might Save four hours in practice Just because you, you got more clarity Right. But the the act of sitting down In that chair When you're in that state is, is very, it Feels very dangerous almost

Again, it's not saying it's not privileging one or the other, it's coming back to your point about balance. Now, one of the exercises, by doing not knowing, is i get people to write, think of a complex challenge they're facing at work, for example, and i give them a yellow piece of paper and they, they give them two minutes to write down all the facts about the challenge.

You know, all things they know music is play. Then ask them, fold it in half, fold it in half again, and put it into their right pocket. Then i give them a blue piece of paper, the same challenge, same length of time, two minutes, but this time to write down all the things that they dunno, all the questions they have, all the curiosities fold in half fold in half.

Again, put it into your pocket. Now at the end, take the two pieces of paper in each hand. Which feels the lighter metaphorically, which the heavier, which list was the longer, which was the shorter, which was the easy, which was the harder. Now each of them has a different experience, but what I, what I normally say is, you know, I didn't tell you to take what you know and throw it away.

No, I wasn't saying that. You are the Tableau rza. Keep it in your pocket so hold what you know but also make space for what you dunno.

I, what we tend to do in organizations o over index on one or the other, we either rest what we know and we don't give enough time for our curiosity and are not, or we think we dunno anything and we forget what we do know, so I think you know, part of this ability to work with shadow is recognizing, you know, what's, what are we aware What, what aren't we aware of and being able to wrestle with both and uh, questions and curiosity I think are are a key uh, capability of that

But then at school, if a child asks more than you know, two or three questions in a class, they're thought to have a DH, ADHD or thought, and then they put on medication. They

get

of question. I had a a guy on uh, the podcast as well who, who wrote a book about curiosity. And he said that I think it was 80 something percent of questions are not really curious question. There are are um, uh, trying to confirm a bias. So it's, it's not open-ended questions. Uh, so, so the style of questions that we ask in organizations is really important as well.

So that's a, it's a difficult question, but the more conflictual questions we can ask helps open up our, our thinking as well. So i think there's a, there's huge power leaders can, can play in, in asking better and, and more questions and conflict. It questions. It's

So, so it's a balance and it can be kind of annoying. At times having a team member that that is the question asker right, Uh, when you just want to get shit done

Uh, so it's,

No. What have you tried? Who should be involved? But they weren't questions that were know yes or no, they were open and they led to more inquiry. And at the end, the person could share, you know, what did they learn from being, uh, receiving all of those questions. So i think there's, there's a practical way that that's, uh, really helpful, uh, to help, uh, leaders, uh, work with questions and. Leverage on the power of people uh, who are not necessary connect

to the, to the shadows as well because the shadows are a lot of times the unknowns, right?

And the questions are also about uncovering the unknowns. I think so much of, of bad choices that that I've made in my career has actually been due to confirmation bias that we, I thought I knew things that it turned out I didn't

No. that you re-engage in what's my leisure style, what are my strengths What, these are questions that you can go deeper and deep as your, as your maturity rises, as your tenure rises, as you experience grows but we keep on asking with a freshness and an aliveness Uh, these questions you know the poet Rilke he, he wrote a lovely phrase about learning to love the questions themselves as if they were treasures locked in a room and you know, part of this is you know, falling in love with the question and not necessarily trying to think about question solution, you know that's uh, that easy, um, easy fallacy I think rather than the beauty of uh, good questions that open up new new insights, fresh thinking uh, rather than uh, just uh, provide ready-made, ready-made answers or solutions

I completely agree had a pretty powerful experience over the summer where I actually wrote down a lot of my desires as a, as a way of, of kind of excavating them.

I thought it was very difficult to, um, to deal with them just in, in, in the abstract, just in in the process of a meditation or something like that. Uh, I've found it was too much taboo and shame around them. So I wanted to, to, to have a process where where I wrote them out to, to kind of uh, excavate them. And and then in, in the step two, think about how are these either um, supporting my vision in life or are these things that I actually don't want to do even though they're they're there?

And part of of, um, part of that was exactly this. uh, One of the things that I became very much aware of that I tried to optimize my life towards and the podcast is just one example is how uh, curiosity something that I want as a... At least weekly but almost daily practice. It, It's a value in itself. And I think as I've grown older.

I've started experiencing. That that the choices that I made. Early on in life. They they were so binary in in terms of. You you talked about security. or, or, Or uh, prestige. or, Or financials Um, But as you you kind of. Excavate a broader map of, of desires. You can start optimizing for things. That aren't, they aren't difficult. In the same sense to, uh, to. Achieve. So, so optimizing in life for curiosity, for example. It's not very difficult to achieve, but it gives me tremendous value. And I i wrote about the same thing when it came to my children, that one of the things that I want them, uh, to, to get from me is curiosity as the highest form of pleasure, right?

Because that's, to me is, is it's always been the case. And i that's one of the hallmarks of, of my fatherhood that I want to give on and pass on, and it gives me a lot of pleasure.

Many possibilities. Possibilities in the expert's mind. There are a few, and i think that's worth bearing in mind, you know, is how do we keep that beginner's mind? Again, back to my example, not throwing away what you know, but making space. You don't, by asking more questions, by seeking conflict ideas, by maybe mentoring, uh, being or reverse, reverse mentoring with somebody you know, who's junior to you, but is an expert in something you know, nothing about. i remember going to a, a conference, it was by Wired uh, Technology uh, magazine, and I met a guy there who worked in, I asked him, uh, what's your business? Said, I work in garden centers. And i said, what are you doing in a technology conference? He said, day, every year i go to two or three conferences, uh, in an area that's totally unrelated to my business.

So what can i No. So it's, it's that, kind of mindset I think that would, that keeps us fresh, keeps us alive and uh, makes effective as leaders.

Have have you worked with with, uh, or thought about those concepts like destiny and so forth?

Uh, one obviously as the, as the victim, one as you know, the vehicle instrument, And then one as you can't separate yourself from life, it's, it's, you, uh, in my own journey was initially I did the transpersonal path, you know, looking at, but then I discovered, you know, it was more for me, the interpersonal. So I'd studied relational psychology, gestalt, et cetera, and my definition of spirituality changed.

You know, it didn't become something that was separate from life, but rather my, my view was i grow in my spirituality by growing in my humanity.

And so my work is around supporting that conversation, uh, not not having a divide between this is, uh, a spiritual, this is material, but thinking what would be the bridge so that it makes sense and, uh, and there's almost nothing to reject. So I'm hoping that from our conversation, uh, listeners walk away with an appreciation of, of a shadow, an appreciation of negative capabilities and how might support, uh, support them in their work and also in their broader lives.